British Indian Ocean Territory: Sovereignty

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 19th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

As the noble Lord knows, we deal with the current Administration until they are no longer the current Administration. I note that as negotiations concluded, support was provided by our US allies not just at the political level, but throughout their Department of Defense and Department of State. This is seen as a desired outcome not just by leading politicians; those who are closely concerned with the security and stability of the base and its continued viability and legal certainty have very much been in support of this treaty.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

I very much welcome my noble friend’s assurances about the Chagossian people who, in all these discussions, must be central in view of the gross injustice inflicted upon them in the past. Can she give us some further assurance about the extent and form of the discussions going on with the Chagossian communities now? This is perhaps an impossible question to ask, but I will try it. We know that there are divided opinions among the Chagossians, but when there is division there comes a point at which one has to reach a conclusion about what the majority view is, in any set of circumstances. Has my noble friend formed that opinion? Do they support, broadly, what is happening, or oppose it?

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

It really depends on who you seek the opinion from. There undoubtedly will be Chagossian communities who are deeply unhappy about this—there is no point pretending otherwise—because what they have wanted and asked for since they were removed by this Government from Chagos in the 1960s is to be able to return and to continue their life as it was previously. Since that happened, that has never been possible. To make that possible, we would need to withdraw our base and our military activity, alongside the United States, from the islands. We have taken the view that we are not prepared to do that. That being the case, the next best thing, as one could describe it, is for those Chagossians to be allowed to visit and settle on the outer islands. That is what has been achieved, potentially, through this treaty.

Chagos Islands: UK-US Defence Relationship

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 5th December 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

I would be very happy to. I point out that Minister West visited Diego Garcia recently. It was before she was appointed as a Minister, but she is now the Minister for Asia and the Pacific, and she has visited the Chagos Island. On the noble Lord’s second point, as he knows, every case is different. This is a unique situation, and our presence in the Chagos Island has been contested for many decades. This is a very different situation to what we have in the sovereign base areas, the uniqueness of which has led to a unique way of resolving the situation.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, I fully understand why my noble friend is cautious and delicate in her language when she talks about participants in whatever agreement is reached, particularly when she is talking about the Chagossians themselves. Of course, we want to make sure that they are fully informed and understand in a transparent way what is being agreed, but can she be a little bit firmer in recognising that in every other aspect of British decolonisation that I can think of, and which I guess most people can think of, self-determination is a crucial principle? This is not easily applied in this respect, but I would like the reassurance that the Chagossians figure very highly in the dialogue that the Government are having.

[Baroness Chapman of Darlington (Lab)]

That is right. Self-determination is fundamental when it comes to other overseas territories, most notably the Falkland Islands. We have made that very clear. The issue here is different. These issues date back to decolonisation, as my noble friend says, and the legal status. Those were very different times, and there was a move then to separate the colony, which is not allowable under international law. That is why we have ended up where we have.

It is right that we engage with the Chagossians and that we listen and understand. They will now have the right to return to the Chagos Islands but not to Diego Garcia. That is a much better position than they have been in over recent decades. What I do not want to see is the Chagossian community used and abused as a political football because some parties have decided that this is a good way to make political capital at their expense.

Council of Europe: 75th Anniversary

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 16th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

What we should be doing is dealing with the problem of very visible illegal migration, which is a problem not just in this country but all over the world. To do that, every country has to come up with an answer on what it is going to do. As I have explained at this Dispatch Box before, it is not possible to do immediate returns to France—that is not something that is currently negotiable —and that is why we have the Rwanda judgment. I have been looking at this issue for well over a decade, and I remember the Chahal case back in the 1990s, where the court determined that you could not balance +the risk to Britain of a dangerous terrorist staying and the risk to that dangerous terrorist if they were deported; there was no balance, as the right was absolute. You can argue that that is a good thing or a bad thing, but my argument would be that that is the sort of thing that we need to debate and decide in Parliament rather than simply rely on a court.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

On the issue of international organisations, has the Foreign Secretary had time to reflect on the comments of Liz Truss, who said that she would like to see the United Nations abolished because she claimed that she does not see a purpose for the organisation. Has he any message for those of us who cannot see a purpose for Liz Truss?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

I take the view that the United Nations has many problems and issues. The frustrations of dealing with the Security Council at the moment, when there is a Russian veto and a Chinese veto, are very great. None the less, it is important that we have an international body where issues can be discussed and countries can come together. Good work is done through the United Nations in spite of the frustration, so I can see the point of the United Nations.

Israel and Gaza

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 26th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I alluded earlier to the report from the IPC. That is why we are working around the clock to ensure that we make the point to Israel about humanitarian access, which, as I said before, we made in our last meeting with Minister Gantz. The need to deliver humanitarian aid was clear and accepted; that is why we persist on this. I have also acknowledged that there has been an uptick in the number of trucks going in—a greater number compared to last month. Still, this is not enough. It is important that we see the kind of aid going in. A ceasefire is coming into place for the period of Ramadan, but we need it to be sustainable and, ultimately, for the reconstruction that is so desperately needed to begin, so that people can start rebuilding their lives.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, given that we all described—quite rightly in my view—the dreadful attack in southern Israel resulting in the deaths of 1,200 people as “slaughter”, what language is left to describe the deaths in Gaza of 33,000 Palestinians, including 13,500 children and babies? How do we describe that? Is killing on that scale consistent with Israel’s right, which we all respect, to self-defence? Is it necessary? In view of international humanitarian law, is killing on that scale in Gaza, and the horror that is Gaza today, a proportionate response by Israel?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, of course, any person who has been killed in this conflict or any other is tragedy beyond belief. The number of people that have been killed in Gaza is shocking. What happened on 7 October was shocking. We see innocent civilians who have been impacted, whether the hostage families or the thousands of people who have been killed in Gaza. This is a human tragedy; I have described it as a catastrophe in every sense.

That is why it needs all nobly intentioned countries to come together and act as one. We need to make sure the resolutions that have been passed by the Security Council are fully implemented. This is not the first one; Resolution 2720 was passed on humanitarian access specifically. Hamas is different from Israel: we expect Israel to adhere to IHL; Hamas is a terrorist organisation. We are talking about two very different entities. That is why we will never give up hope and will continue our strong advocacy and work with key partners to ensure we can bring this tragic conflict to an end. I am sure the noble Lord, like us all, acknowledges that the loss of any innocent life is a tragedy beyond belief, and we have seen far too many people killed in this conflict.

Israel and Gaza

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend will know from his own time at the Foreign Office that the current Prime Minister and Government of Israel do not articulate the two-state solution. However, it is the long-standing position of successive British Governments and, as I have again articulated, it is our firm view and that of the US, key partners in Europe and key partners in the region that the two-state solution is the only solution that will provide the sustainable security, justice and peace that are equally deserved by Palestinians and Israelis.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has repeatedly referred to the need for a sustainable peace and a two-state solution, with which virtually everyone must surely agree. The Foreign Secretary has made clear that that will inevitably include the recognition of a Palestinian state. I would like the Minister’s response to a significant but unfortunate development in the last 10 days that makes a two-state solution that much more remote: the statement by Prime Minister Netanyahu, who we have long known from his actions has no intention of recognising or accepting a Palestinian state, making it plain and explicit that Israel’s control over the West Bank will remain indefinitely and that he is totally opposed to a two-state solution. As that means violating international law, among many other things, can the Minister tell us in concrete terms, in pursuit of a two-state solution, what representations the Government and the international community are making to the Israeli Government, but specifically to the Prime Minister, as to how on earth he expects to achieve a sustainable peace in the Middle East if the Palestinians are constantly denied a homeland?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I think I have made our Government’s position clear: it needs to happen. The Palestinians deserve a state, and that is what we are working on. My noble friend Lord Cameron articulated the important issue of recognising Palestine at the appropriate time within the process that is currently under way. It does not need to happen on day one, but nor does that mean it will happen at the end of the process. It is important that we work with key partners, and the issue of recognising Palestine, including at the UN, is part of that process. It is not just the United Kingdom that has articulated that very clearly to Israel but our key partners and, importantly, the United States. The noble Lord will have heard Secretary of State Blinken be very clear that the United States rejected Mr Netanyahu’s proposals for Gaza, including security buffers. We share that position. Equally, we will implore and advocate. The noble Lord is quite right: the existence of Israel and a future Palestinian state is enshrined in UN Security Council resolutions and constitutes international law. That needs to be abided by.

Situation in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

I am grateful to my noble friend, and allow me to clarify. We will recognise a Palestinian state as part of a two-state solution at the time that is right and with the leadership in place. We have already talked about needing a technocratic Government who will resolve the issues that exist within Gaza in particular, and we want to make sure that that Government do not have Hamas anywhere near them, or as part of them, and that they are trusted in those territories but also by the people of Israel, who want to live in peace with their neighbours.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, for as long as most of us can remember, Ministers at the Dispatch Box, of both parties, have reiterated the commitment to a two-state solution, although I have to say—and a Select Committee of this House made this position explicit not so long ago—that the possibility of that being achieved as long as the Government in Israel pursue their expansion of settlements on the West Bank is diminishing. It is only at times of awful violence, such as we have seen in the last few months, that the attention of the international community is focused on what the two-state solution actually means and whether we will work for it as soon as the violence ceases. What is new is not just that Israel has been moving towards making a two-state solution more difficult but that the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, has made it quite clear that he simply will not accept a Palestinian state. I should like to know what steps the Government are taking to try to impress on him that there can be no long-term chance of peace in the Middle East until the Palestinians, like the Israelis, have a state of their own.

[Lord Benyon (Con)]

The noble Lord raises the fundamental issue here. There are different voices in Israel, and we will work with whoever is in government to achieve what we, with our partners in the region and with countries such as the United States, think is the best way forward for the people of Israel and those living in the Occupied Territories. The noble Lord is right: that is very difficult to achieve, particularly when people at the top of the Government are saying that our policy is not right for them. However, there are plenty of people who believe—I earlier quoted somebody deeply involved with the security of the State of Israel—that it is fundamentally important not just for the Palestinians but for the future of Israel. It is that which we want to secure. Israel is our friend; we can speak frankly with friends, and that is what we do in diplomatic terms. We do not cut ourselves off from it just because there might be some side to an argument that we disagree with. We will work with Israel to try to achieve what we think is best for the long-term security of the region, which affects us all.

Israel and Gaza

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

It is very important that we hear from everybody. One of the things that I do with the responsibilities of the aid and development portfolio that is now squarely within the Foreign Office is to make sure that we listen to all the NGOs, all the experts and all the people who can make a difference when it comes to getting aid in and trying to relieve this desperate humanitarian situation.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

When the Foreign Secretary said

“I am worried that Israel has taken action that might be in breach of international law”,


did he have in mind the principle of proportionality in armed conflict and whether it is a proportionate self-defence by Israel to have been responsible so far for some 24,000 Palestinian deaths, including 10,000 children?

[Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton (Con)]

What I meant when I said that was simply that I worry about these things. It is my job to worry. The Foreign Office has a job, which is to look at the legal advice and work out whether Israel is committed to, and capable of complying with, international humanitarian law, and then, based on that judgment, we have to take a series of actions, including looking at things like export licences. We always urge Israel to obey international humanitarian law, and it is important that we do so.

Occupied Palestinian Territories: Humanitarian Situation

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Thursday 9th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness—I have said this before about the hostages—that we are working with many of the countries she highlights. Qatar, for example, as the noble Baroness will know, is playing a key role in this respect. That is a key focus for us in our priorities. There are three areas. We want those who need to leave Gaza to leave, the hostages to be released and the aid to go in. Those three things require that we work towards ensuring that the conditions on the ground sustain that. Let me reassure the noble Baroness, in terms of not just the hostage release but the future, that the near neighbours to Israel need to play a role as partners in peace. I can assure the noble Baroness that, from our conversations and the discussions and diplomatic engagement we are having, they are very seized of that priority.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, sooner or later there will be a ceasefire. The only question is: how many people will get killed between now and when the ceasefire takes place? We all know the pattern after that. It will not end the conflict: there will be a period of quiet and then another flare-up, which we hope will not be as bad as this one. There is no prospect of any peace in this part of the world until the Palestinians have what the Israelis have long had: a state of their own. I want to hear from the Minister an assurance that he will not turn his back, as the rest of the world tends to as soon as the immediate conflict is over, and that he will ensure that the British Government—despairing as they must currently sound about a two-state solution—realise that you cannot have two states when you recognise only one. The Palestinians deserve no less.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I can assure the noble Lord. I have been a Minister for a while, but I will share with noble Lords that this is probably one of the most challenging and toughest not only briefs but occasions when I am standing before your Lordships’ House, speaking about what is currently happening and the shocking events in Israel on 7 October. Subsequently, we have seen what is being endured by innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza—this has to stop. I mentioned this being sustained in my opening comments; I will not turn my back, and I hope that noble Lords will not turn theirs. There will not be a short-term solution; this will require long-term focus. Looking around this Chamber, I am sure that whoever stands in my place in the months and years to come will also reflect the importance of finding a lasting solution—it is not papering over the cracks, as the noble Lord said, because this will erupt again. We need to ensure that terrorist organisations such as Hamas are not in governance positions, which is why we support the Palestinian Authority. Ultimately, as we, the Americans, the Europeans and the Gulf states have said, sustainable peace can be achieved only when there are two states, Israel and Palestine, living side by side—not just independent but ultimately, we hope, learning that coexistence is the way forward.

Occupied Palestinian Territories

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 27th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

My Lords, I fully subscribe to the comments my noble friend quotes. It is very hard to negotiate if one side does not believe that you have the right to exist, and it is clear from the security situation today that things are particularly fragile. Last year, a very large number of Palestinians and Israelis were killed by acts of violence, and 2023 started the same way. We are all appalled by the recent terror attacks near Jerusalem that killed two Israelis, and the attack on Sunday 26 February, which killed two Israelis on the West Bank. We condemn these attacks, as we do all such attacks, in the strongest possible terms, and we condemn the glorification of violence that so often happens among those in Gaza.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

Does the Minister acknowledge that for years, if not decades, Ministers in his position on that Front Bench have reiterated support for a two-state solution and opposition to illegal settlement by the Israelis in the Palestinian territories? Can he confirm that there has been no progress whatsoever on either of those fronts in all the time that Ministers have been expressing those wishes and desires? Does he further agree that there is a diminishing prospect of any kind of two-state solution so long as the illegal Israeli occupation of parts of Palestinian territory continues?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

My Lords, the UK’s long-standing position on the Middle East peace process is clear and remains clear. We support a negotiated settlement leading to a safe and secure Israel living alongside a viable and sovereign Palestinian state, based on the 1967 borders, with equal land swaps to reflect the national security and religious interests of the Israeli and Palestinian peoples. That is our position and always has been our position.

Regarding the settlements, there too our position remains unchanged. We want to see a contiguous West Bank, including east Jerusalem, as part of a viable sovereign Palestinian state, based on those same 1967 lines. We recognise that many such settlements are contrary to international law.

European Political Community

Lord Grocott Excerpts

Monday 31st October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

The noble Viscount makes an important point. That is true across all issues in all sectors. One of the most valuable organisations that I have been involved in is called GLOBE. It is about bringing legislators together from around the world to compare, and sometimes helpfully compete with one another in relation to, environmental legislation. That worked beautifully, and no doubt it works in every important sector.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the overwhelming evidence of anyone involved in public life that if something starts out with a small secretariat, it nearly always ends up being a big secretariat?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con)]

My Lords, the participants, including the host country, are very clear that no new structures or institutions are to be created. That is absolutely not the purpose. There is a healthy scepticism towards the creation of such structures, precisely on the basis that they could end up duplicating the work of other such structures or even undermining it.