Geo-Blocking Regulation (Revocation) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Debate between Lord Griffiths of Burry Port and Lord McNally
Lord McNally
We have heard it all. If you seek your memorial, look about you at the mess and the chaos that that kind of arrogance has led this poor country into.
We face a data revolution. One thing that our retail industry is having to grapple with now is how we deal with the move of retail from the high street to online and the repercussions of that. All that is going to be far better dealt with in co-operation with our nearest neighbours, and we will miss out not just on the benefits to the UK consumer but on the power to engage and influence the implementation of the digital single market.
I said this in one of the earlier debates but I will repeat it. I was the Minister for Data Protection from 2010 to 2013 and I went to one of the early meetings discussing the GDPR in Lithuania. I remember sitting through a whole afternoon and noticing at the end of the day that one of the people round the table had neither intervened, spoken nor voted or anything. I turned to the British ambassador and said, “The guy at the end of the table has not said anything or taken any part”. He said, “Ah, that’s the Norwegian. They can attend, they can listen but they can’t involve themselves in the decisions”. Welcome to the world we are about to enter. So much for sovereignty; so much for bringing back power. You are in power when you are at the table where the big decisions are made. That is where the noble Lord is wrong and I think history will judge him harshly.
As is the custom in such circumstances, we will of course see this instrument go through. The noble Baroness explained how the devolved part of it will be done and explained about Northern Ireland. The only other clarification I would like is this: if the shutters came down, what about processes that were already under way? If you had already purchased something or you were already selling something, how would the law apply in those circumstances? I am not going to say that we have no objection otherwise, but let us say that we give a wry grin as we let this go through.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)
My Lords, I begin by refuting what the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said about himself. There can be no comparison between him and the President of the United States; it may be that neither of them knows how to pronounce reciprocity, but the President would not know what it meant either. Let it be said also that the little exchange between my noble friend Lord Howarth and the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is indicative of where our manner of conducting these discussions has got us. Two people, for whom I have respect—and, indeed, affection—are capable of having a real bout of reciprocal hostility, if not animosity—
Lord Howarth of Newport
I have absolutely no hostility towards the noble Lord, Lord McNally. I am very fond of him; please correct the record.
Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
In my professional life as a mediator, I used to succeed in instances such as this. Clearly I have done it again.
On the question before us, we on these Benches and many on the other side believe there should be a permanent and comprehensive UK-EU customs union, a close alignment with the single market, dynamic alignment on rights and protections, and clear commitments on participation in EU agencies. Earlier this afternoon we were talking about the break-up of such reciprocal arrangements. Worries have been expressed about what will happen in areas where we have fruitfully collaborated over the years if and when we come out of the European Union.
Hundreds of Brexit-related statutory instruments have been laid since June 2018. How much time in this and the other Chamber have we spent debating them? I refer again, as I inevitably do when talking about an SI, to the talented people working in our Civil Service who have been required to do the work of a drudge—trawling through legislation, instruments and regulations going back over 40 years—to bring the statute books into alignment with each other. It is a sheer waste of time.
Yesterday, when I stood here to make my contribution to the debate about the new White Paper on online harms, it was such a relief after what had preceded it to talk about something proper again. We miss all of that. For example, today I have been told when we will be able to discuss advertising and the internet—a debate that was put back from last Thursday, when it was scheduled, to later in April because we had to replace it with seven amendments to the European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 5) Bill which were full of animosity and sheer vindictiveness. I have never heard a debate like that in my life.
We regret the fact that these exit SIs have become a manic tick-box exercise. The Government have wasted two and a half years to sort out a deal. We have been buried in Parliament by the mountain of work that has ensued for those of us sitting here. Before I came, and yesterday, I read endless documents about not particularly interesting details simply to create the impression that I know what geo-blocking is. The Government have recklessly pushed through EU legislation with no proper consultation, no impact assessment and wholly inadequate parliamentary scrutiny. It will come home to haunt us. Mistakes will have been made. We cannot possibly get it all right under this pressure and without the normal, conventional delays that are necessary in taking through amendments to legislation. We will make mistakes, and we will recognise that as we go on.
It worries me that people have been so worried about betraying the conventions and the constitutional arrangements of the workings of this and the other House when they have been so cavalier in the way they have flouted convention in presenting these statutory instruments.
This instrument is, I have to admit, a logical measure to cope with the needs of our statute book in the event of a no-deal Brexit, 72 hours before the most recent date set for us to exit. We can assume only that since nobody wants a no-deal exit, we will get one only if we allow ourselves to wander into it. The danger is that even so, that is exactly what will happen.
This SI raises the same old questions which other and previous ones raised. On the matter of consultation, for example, in the explanatory document we are told that on 18 January this year a letter was written to Ministers in the Scottish and Welsh Governments and to the civil servants in the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy. The Minister said that the Welsh Government had given their assent, which I am aware of from my contacts with the Assembly in Cardiff. However, while I know some of the concerns that were raised by the Welsh, I would love to have known about the other questions and concerns; in other words, we are told that consultations took place between the Government and these bodies, but we who have to debate the instrument have no knowledge of the ground covered in those consultations or where the sticking points might have been so that we might perhaps apply our minds to those areas for consideration.
Similarly, “interested business groups” were consulted —the CBI, the Federation of Small Businesses, the British Retail Consortium and, listed in a footnote, the Association for UK Interactive Entertainment—but again, there is no mention of the concerns that might have been raised during these consultations. That would have helped me much more than much else I have had to read as I have tried to shape my mind in response to the instrument before us. We are told that the consultation took place, but there is nothing to help us with the material and the ground that was covered in those consultations.
It is more than a tad ironic that we now find ourselves needing to revoke a regulation which became effective a mere four months ago. Think of all the work which British as well as other officials put into the careful framing of this regulation. Now, so soon, we are preparing to send it into oblivion. It is vital that the reciprocity envisaged by this regulation should somehow be maintained in the event of our leaving the EU. This is such an important area of collaboration and a joint approach to handling our business affairs that it seems a travesty for British customers and businesses to be left with fewer rights than they now enjoy, or rights that have to be recreated and reconstructed from the ground upwards when they already exist. I would like to know from the Minister whether the perceptible shortcomings with regard to the advantages to British businesses and customers can and will be corrected, and in what manner.
On this last matter, the Explanatory Memorandum suggests:
“Regulators in other EU states would be very unlikely to enforce the Regulation on behalf of UK customers as the framework for cross border cooperation will be repealed in a ‘no deal’ exit from the EU”.
Later in the same document, we read that, if we fail to revoke this regulation,
“UK traders would continue to have obligations to EU customers under the Regulation while UK customers are unlikely to receive any of its benefits”.
I have noticed this question of likelihood in previous SIs. It is such an odd word to have in a document that states how the law will be modified in order to harmonise it with the demands of our statute book. Likely or unlikely? Who thinks that it is unlikely? What level of unlikelihood is there? Who has asked anyone any questions to lead them to think that it would be either likely or unlikely?
Cairncross Review
Debate between Lord Griffiths of Burry Port and Lord McNally(5 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Griffiths of Burry Port
Now your Lordships are rising to the bait, which I appreciate. It was, of course, the same newspaper in Llanelli—and in Llangennech and Llwchwr—but the front page was different. When somebody had moved out of a house, a boat had sunk, somebody had passed the 11-plus or there was to be a flower-arranging display in one of the local chapels, it was my job to tell the community about it.
Community cohesion is undergirded by an active press. None of us should simply take for granted that its disappearance will not have effects. How can the Government address this? The BBC has embedded reporters into local areas, which is brilliant. How much more of this can we hope to do? What about the idea of a regulator, which was picked out from the report by the press this morning? How effective will such a regulator be? What will his or her terms of reference be? Will there be teeth to the job that that person is asked to do?
There are so many questions, but above and beyond them is a very real concern. This is a matter which belongs to Parliament as a whole—and to bipartisan approaches—and is a real problem at a local level. I conclude my remarks by emphasising once again the levels of concern, the health of communities and the need for instruments such as a local newspaper to forge an identity for a locality. Burry Port was never Llangennech, and Llwchwr was never Llanelli, because the press helped us give expression to a real sense of identity. How on behalf of the Government will the Minister—and how will we as a Parliament—make practical proposals to achieve these noble ends?
Lord McNally (LD)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, paints a romantic and nostalgic picture of the local press, and he is right to do so. But, in trying to solve the problems that face us in somehow helping the Burry Port Star, we must beware. The press owners have come with a begging bowl. They earlier proclaimed their resistance to any government interference, but quite ready to dip their hands into the public purse are very large and rich companies, many of which have delivered redundancy after redundancy to local papers in favour of their shareholders.
That is one of the reasons why local journalism is in the state that it is in. I also suggest that the National Union of Journalists might be added to the list of people to consult that the Minister read out. There is a serious challenge to local media. Dame Frances set it out very bleakly in her report and the Minister repeated it. There is massive technological change and that impacts on how news is received and—particularly with the under-25s—how it is digested.
I welcome some of the actions announced by the Minister to refer some of the recommendations to relevant bodies. However, the ambitions of the Government and newspaper proprietors would be more credible if they had not been so eager to bury the Leveson report and ignore its call for the establishment of a regulator set up by royal charter which could do many of the tasks called for in this report.
As I said, freedom from Government does not seem to stop the press barons from dipping into the public purse. Therefore, although I welcome the recommendations on digital and media literacy, online advertising and news quality obligations, we should be hard-nosed about how and where tax relief and innovation fund money is spent. It is not there simply to line the pockets of Newsquest, JPI Media and Reach, which are all big, profitable companies that have taken the lion’s share of the existing Local Democracy Reporting Service, which costs the BBC £8 million.
Some of the powers advocated in this report could be taken on by the Press Recognition Panel, the independent body established by Parliament under royal charter. The recommendations on how to bring the FANGs within the rule of law go wider than the issues covered by this report but its recommendations on new codes of conduct for online platforms are to be welcomed.
But what do we find in the report? As usual, it is a quick dive to try to weaken the BBC. In almost 40 years of being involved in this I have explained to various media proprietors that 90 years ago a Conservative Government had the common sense to nationalise the BBC as a public service broadcaster with a mandate that consciously distorted the market in favour of public service broadcasting. They want to have a go at the BBC online because it carries the same credibility and weight as the broadcast BBC. I hope that although the Minister has asked Ofcom to look at this, Ofcom will be very sceptical about trying to weaken one of the strongest public service journalism outlets in this country, one which should be defended.
I hope also that the Minster will use his good influence to secure a full day’s debate in this House. This is an important report; so is the one published today by the Press Recognition Panel. This is an ongoing debate and the knowledge that exists in this House would be of benefit in taking a very wide agenda forward.