Freedom of Expression (Communications and Digital Committee Report)

Debate between Lord Griffiths of Burry Port and Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist

Thursday 27th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, and to pay my thanks to the outgoing chair and, indeed, my obeisance to the incoming chair, as I seek to behave appropriately as a member of the committee.

My first point is an observation on how long it takes for a committee report to get its day in the Chamber. It is two years since we did this work. I think of our work on the future funding of the BBC, the future of Channel 4, the position of regulators and now our report on the creative industries and wonder just how old I will be by the time we get to the end of that list.

So it is good to have the report here. In a sense, rereading it with the advantage of two years’ space makes me aware of just how good a report it is. It makes as good reading now as it did then. The noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, subtly made a point that I will take home and think about. Yes, we had the age-old debate about the need to wed ourselves to the idea of freedom of expression as a human right, but we also had impeccable debates about the misuse of people’s data.

They were two debates that were truly impeccable, each adumbrating a principle which we should stand by with every fibre of our being. It seems to me that, since one seems like an unstoppable force and the other an immovable object, it would need the wisdom of Solomon to decide in particular instances how to favour the rights of those who feel their privacy has been invaded over the advocates—of whom I am one—of freedom of speech. But originators and recipients will go home with me, and I shall think seriously about it.

The digital equivalent of the public square is how social media platforms have been described, and indeed they are, yet the irony is that they are controlled by private companies. Out of that paradox come all the difficulties that we are wrestling with as we seek to get legislation that deals with this complicated world.

The protection of children has been adequately mentioned, and so it should be. I heard the Minister at Question Time yesterday talk again and again about the fact that looking after the interests of children is the predominant feature of the Government’s mind as they take legislation forward in this area. So I hope that the 5Rights work done by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, will be incorporated in that thinking and play a major part. Age verification is what she is very concerned about. I believe that her foundation has made significant progress towards getting something that we could work with, and I hope she has assurance on that point.

Early in this report, we were pointing the way forward, presciently I think, towards the Online Safety Bill that will soon be before us—or will it be soon? It has been put off so many times. I have no idea when it will finally be taken on the Floor of the House of Commons. Looking towards such a Bill, we emphasise the need for three aspects of consideration that we should take very seriously: the design of legislation, the nature of competition and the need for improved education in what the phenomenon of the internet and its applications means, not just in terms of helping children and adults to press the right buttons and to activate the machinery to do their will, but to understand outcomes and the essential nature of what anonymous contributions to conversations—or are they conversations if the contributors are anonymous?—can lead to. Well, I am very glad that this is before us.

I walk quite regularly under the statue of George Orwell at the BBC. I have almost memorised and thought a lot about the inscription from Animal Farm that is written on the wall behind the statue:

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”


That is fair enough. I have stood at Speakers’ Corner in Hyde Park many a time and have had a fair few things hurled at me. However, I want to add as a corollary, “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right of people to tell me what I don’t want to hear”. I think that that might be a complementary way of looking at a very important principle.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

Before we go any further, perhaps I may remind noble Lords that there is a speaking limit and that this is a time-limited debate, so we will be squeezing Minister’s summing-up at the end. With the exception of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, everybody has gone over today.

Government of Wales Act 2006 (Amendment) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Griffiths of Burry Port and Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist

Monday 9th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab)]

My Lords, I must add my voice to others who welcome the Minister to her position. We note that the gangway is wide enough for even the longest swords not to reach each other, so I trust that we will pursue business pertaining to all of us and for the betterment of Wales in perfect amity. I do not want to intimidate the noble Baroness with all that has been said about her predecessor, but I must add my voice to those who expressed their admiration for all that the noble Lord contributed on this and other issues. I hope she will not take that as pressure in any way, but an expression of gratitude and a real welcome to her in her new role.

This is such a simple matter, but it arises from what the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said about the complicated model that allows some activities within a related set to be on the reserved list and some not. In Wales we have not only a word but a way of saying it; this will make everything “tidy”, will it not? Presently, the right to oversee elections at local level and to the National Assembly is devolved to the Assembly, but all other elections are subject to the reserved list and they have no similar autonomy. This brings everything together and is logical.

I am glad that this has happened in response to the stimulus from similar exercises being undertaken by other devolved Governments; we wish that the devolved Government of Northern Ireland were fully party to these conversations, instead of things having to be dealt with in a different way for Northern Ireland. This electoral list exercise that is being undertaken in the hope that everything will be brought together by 2020 really puts the pressure on to get these things tidied up. The things that the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, referred to as needing to happen will be facilitated by this, but even more needs to happen to get some of the things that she properly alluded to.

So those powers that now come together under the authority of the devolved Government of Wales and the powers that Ministers will have in the Welsh Assembly without having to resort to Ministers and the Government here in Westminster are both welcome developments. The noble Lord, Lord Wigley, says that three Plaid Cymru Members were promised, but I cannot imagine for a moment three Lord Wigleys. One really is enough. For all that, in terms of the contribution that he makes, not just to subjects related to Wales but across the entire spectrum of considerations that are before us, it is good that his party is represented and would that it were even better represented. I will just leave that with the noble Baroness.

The Explanatory Memorandum that has come to me from Cardiff, under the considerations that relate to the policy objectives to be achieved and enhanced by the measures before us, signs off with a sentence that I find intriguing and bewildering. It says, “The remaining provisions”, without stipulating what they might be,

“would need to be made as part of the UK legislative proposals which would see the necessary statutory changes sitting within two separate SIs”.

I have done lots of examination papers in my life. If we had the word “discuss” at the end of that sentence, I wonder what the noble Baroness would have to say. It is a bit of gobbledegook but at the heart of it there may be something that we need to take note of before we approve this statutory instrument. But in terms of the general provisions, there is no hesitation on our part from this side of the House and we wish the noble Baroness well with her first electoral triumph, which she is bound to have on this occasion.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist]

I thank noble Lords for their valuable contributions to the debate this afternoon and for their kind words of welcome and encouragement. I am conscious that I do indeed have very large boots to fill following the departure of my noble friend Lord Bourne. All I can say is that I shall do my best.

I am glad that we have been able to tidy up this bit of legislation through the introduction of this SI. It is right that we learn from the experience of all the devolved Governments and I will take note of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths of Burry Port. The order adds EROs to the lists of reserved authorities which are excepted from the consent requirements in paragraphs 8 and 10 of Schedule 7B to the Government of Wales Act 2006. In doing so, it will enable the Assembly to modify the functions of EROs in devolved areas in future without needing the agreement of the UK Government to do so. In line with this, it also alters the scope of devolved competence under the Welsh Ministers (Transfer of Functions) Order 2018 so that Minister of the Crown functions in relation to devolved ERO functions will transfer to Welsh Ministers. This will enable the Welsh Ministers to implement reforms to the annual canvass process in respect of devolved polls.

I acknowledge the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, on data-sharing mechanisms. The new canvass model will incorporate a data step where the electoral register will first be matched against DWP and local data sources such as council tax. The Cabinet Office has consulted the Electoral Commission on the canvass reform proposals. We welcome its positive response and we will work closely with it as the canvass reforms move forward to address any such issues. As for when and where the debate will take place, I will need to get back to noble Lords on that point.

Lastly, I too would love to see more Welsh voices on these Benches but I welcome the productive work with the Welsh Government in preparing this order and I commend it to the House.

Motion agreed.