Non-Domestic Rating (Public Lavatories) Bill

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord Greenhalgh

Report stage & Lords Hansard
Wednesday 17th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my residential and commercial property interests as set out in the register. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for these two amendments which would change the way a public toilet is defined for the purposes of qualifying for the relief within this Bill.

As currently drafted, the 100% business rates relief will be available to any eligible hereditament which consists wholly or mainly of public lavatories. The first amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, would amend this so that eligibility is determined on the use of the hereditament.

The Government aim to make this relief as simple as possible to administer for local councils. When determining whether to award the relief, local authorities should be able to apply a degree of common sense and ask the essential question: “Does it look like a public lavatory”? Therefore, the Government favour an approach based on the physical characteristics of a hereditament, and “consists” achieves this better than “used” does.

While I appreciate the intention of the noble Lord in bringing forward this amendment, I hope that the House will agree that the extent to which a hereditament consists of public lavatories is less likely to be subject to change than the extent to which it is used as a public lavatory. As such, the approach chosen by the Government will result in fewer reassessments of awards of the relief being required.

Furthermore, the Government do not consider that the adoption of either option would result in a material difference to ratepayers. A hereditament consisting of a public toilet is unlikely to be used for any purpose other than that for which it has been designed. This contrasts with the business rates relief available to charities, which hinges on the use of the hereditament. The wording of the charity rate relief reflects that, for example, a hereditament consisting of a shop may be used for either charitable or non-charitable purposes. I do not consider there to be an equivalent issue in the case of public toilets.

I would like to reassure the noble Lord that it is not the Government’s intention for this relief to be available to toilets which are permanently closed and out of use. That is why the Bill amends only Section 43 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988—the section relating to occupied hereditaments. As such, the relief will not apply to unoccupied public lavatories.

The second amendment would define the meaning of the word “mainly” for the purposes of awarding the relief in the Bill as meaning “at least 50%”. As I have set out, it is councils and not central government which are responsible for determining eligibility for business rates relief and it is right that there is some element of discretion in this process. The use of the word “mainly”, which is used elsewhere in rates legislation where it remains undefined, achieves this.

It is right that local authorities have the ability to take a common-sense approach in marginal cases and to reflect on their own local knowledge, as well as any relevant case law and guidance, when making their decisions. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for his proposals. However, on the basis of the points made I hope he will agree to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for devoting some brainpower to this, actually thinking about it and coming up with sensible arguments. On balance, I do not agree with him. It seems that common sense would be to make it as simple as possible —his words—for local authorities, using exactly the same wording they are used to for other things.

I am particularly grateful for his use of the term “common sense”. He may find himself quoted from Hansard in future, when local authorities, as they sometimes do, make completely stupid decisions. It is now written down; it is laid down that common sense has to be used. I should declare my interest as a member of Pendle Borough Council.

I have tried to bring this into line—it will not destroy the Bill. The Minister said that the physical characteristics of public lavatories are very clear and do not change—but their uses do change. We once had a planning application for turning a public lavatory into an ice cream parlour, but I do not think that that succeeded. I think that, had they tried to sell ice cream from it, people would not have thought that it was still a public lavatory, but it is still very true.

I am grateful for what the Minister said; I am sorry that he will not accept my amendments, but I will not push them to a vote—they are not of that degree of importance. I beg leave to withdraw Amendment 1.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock, Lady Randerson, Lady Thomas and Lady Greengross, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for their amendments, which would require the Government to publish a review of the impact of this Bill on the provision of public toilets.

Every year, the Valuation Office Agency publishes a snapshot of the number of separately assessed toilets as of 31 March. In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, my brief research indicates that there were 6,087 public toilets in 2000, and that number had reduced dramatically to 4,627 by 2014 and to 4,383 by 2016. I do not have the exact figure for 2010 but it is clear that we have seen a dramatic reduction over many decades. As I mentioned in Committee, the current figure stands at 3,990 such facilities in England and Wales. This annual data release also breaks the aggregate total down to a local authority level, thus giving an overview of the distribution of these facilities across the country. The VOA will continue to make this data publicly available each year. Any future trends in the total provision of separately assessed public toilets, as well as their distribution across the country, will therefore be apparent.

Of course, the Government do not want to see further reductions in this figure. However, it is important to recognise that the ability for any public toilet to remain open is based on a number of issues. This does not diminish the importance of this Bill, but it does mean that hanging any trends in the provision of toilets solely on this business rates relief would not be the right thing to do. Operators of public toilets—in many cases, local councils—make decisions on the provision of public toilets in their area having reflected on relevant building regulations and their equality duty, as well as financial considerations.

In the first instance, the provision of toilets reflects the relevant building regulations. For example, under current building regulations, all new non-domestic buildings are expected to include a unisex, wheelchair-accessible toilet. Furthermore, I appreciate that Amendment 3 refers specifically to Changing Places toilets. I am pleased to be able to say that a major change in building rules in England made at the start of this year means that it is now compulsory to include a Changing Places facility in certain new public buildings. This is estimated to add these crucial facilities to more than 150 new buildings each year.

The House may also be interested to hear that the Government are currently undertaking a review of Part M of the statutory building regulations, which covers the access to and use of public toilets. This review will cover issues of mobility, demography and wider inclusion, and it will look at the size and layouts of toilets alongside the range of facilities needed to meet the requirements of people with different needs. This review will therefore look at the need to make any changes to building regulations in the context of the need for a fair provision of accessible toilets—including Changing Places facilities—and baby-changing facilities.

Clearly, a one-size-fits-all approach to toilet provision would not be appropriate, and it is important that any support given to the total provision of public toilets is not blind to the need to ensure that the needs of all are met by this provision. That is why my department is undertaking a technical review of toilets which will consider the ratio of female toilets required versus the number for men, as well as the need for a fair provision of accessible and gender-neutral toilets. We have received over 17,000 responses to this review as part of the call for evidence, which ran from 31 October 2020 to 26 February this year. The Government are now considering these representations and will respond in due course.

As well as the important measure in the Bill, the Government are providing significant grant funding to directly support the provision of public toilets. In response to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, I am happy to give some more detail on the £30 million fund put in place by the Government to support the provision of Changing Places toilets. I am happy to say that the Minister for Regional Growth, Minister Hall, has now announced that this funding will be provided to councils on an opt-in basis so that they can install facilities in their local areas and boost the number of Changing Places toilets in existing buildings. District and unitary authorities in England will be invited to complete a short expression of interest and will soon receive full details of how they can access this funding.

I can also confirm that the Government are partnering with the charity Muscular Dystrophy UK—as mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas—to develop guidance to support the allocation of this funding. Muscular Dystrophy UK is an expert in this field and co-chairs the Changing Places consortium. I am sure that the House will agree that this partnership is a positive and important element of a significant multiyear programme to accelerate the provision of these vital facilities.

Finally, I would like to take the opportunity to thank those from across the House who took time to meet me and representatives from the British Toilet Association earlier this week. It was a valuable and constructive meeting and there was broad agreement on the importance of this measure in supporting toilet provision. While I do not think that an assessment of toilet provision in the context of the business rates system would be appropriate, I would be happy to meet again with any Peers who have an interest, as well as with the British Toilet Association, the National Association of Local Councils and the Local Government Association. I hope that this will provide us with an opportunity to further explore what is clearly an important issue, not just to those in this House but to many people across the country, and to build that ambition around the future provision of public toilets that has been called for by so many in this House.

I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock, Lady Randerson, Lady Thomas and Lady Greengross, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for their amendments, which recognise the importance not just of the total provision of public toilets but of having appropriate facilities which meet the needs of all. However, on the basis of the points I have made to the House, I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, will withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, along with others, no doubt, I thank the Minister for his great interest in this area. I should apologise for not being able to make the meeting on Monday. I intended to, but I was caught up in a site meeting on ward issues. They are pretty difficult to organise at the moment, so it took rather longer. I apologise for that, but I have had good reports.

The only point I want to make is to thank the Minister for underlining what I was trying, less effectively, to say about the opt-in provision for new Changing Places-type provision and the fact that it does not apply to town and parish councils. However, major public buildings in a small town—a big community centre, a town hall or a leisure facility—may well belong to and be operated by the town council, and often are. The larger town councils at least ought to be included in that, and I wonder whether the Minister could go back and have a look at that. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Non-Domestic Rating (Public Lavatories) Bill

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord Greenhalgh

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 24th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

Non-Domestic Rating (Public Lavatories) Bill

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord Greenhalgh

Wednesday 24th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am beginning to learn how the House works, and I appreciate the education; I am sure I will get used to this way of drawing out important information. These amendments probe the current definition of a public lavatory that would qualify for this relief, and seek to amend this definition to capture some of the facilities that the Bill does not currently cover.

The Government have carefully drafted the scope of the Bill, and I am pleased to have the opportunity to set out for the House the rationale behind this decision. Subject to Royal Assent, the relief within this Bill will apply to all hereditaments that

“consist wholly or mainly of public lavatories”.

Amendment 2, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, probes the meaning of “mainly” in this provision. The phrase “wholly or mainly” can be found across government legislation and, in particular, exists within that legislation which provides for an 80% business rate discount to properties used

“wholly or mainly for charitable purposes”,

as the noble Lord mentioned. Local authorities are responsible for deciding which properties are eligible for business rate relief, and the use of “mainly” provides for some discretion on their part.

However, I will directly respond to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, on how this would work in practice. Councils should reflect on all relevant matters, including any relevant case law and guidance, when making these decisions. The use of “mainly” means that an authority may, for example, look at the floor area of a building and see that less than 50% is being used directly as a public lavatory, but it may still feel that it meets the criteria for this relief because the remaining area is used as storage or for other matters of little consequence. That is very similar to the example that the noble Lord gave. The Government consider it right that the Bill provides local authorities with this level of discretion because these are decisions best taken on the ground and on the basis of local knowledge.

The second amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, follows on from the first and would act to define “mainly” within the Bill in reference to the extent to which a property is used as a public lavatory, rather than for other purposes. I appreciate that the intention of this amendment is to provide for the relief to be available to buildings that do not constitute separately assessed public toilets but that serve that purpose to a large extent. As I set out earlier, an expansion of the relief beyond those toilets that are separately assessed and have already been identified and separately rated would bring with it significant administrative burdens and costs.

In the case of this amendment, local authorities would be required to not just identify qualifying facilities but assess the extent to which the public are using them for different functions. The public use test would be particularly cumbersome because it would go beyond an assessment of a property’s physical elements and would require an analysis of the extent to which these elements are used by the public. The results of such a test could change relatively frequently, and local authorities may need to make the required assessment on a regular basis.

As currently designed, the measure in the Bill does not carry implementation costs disproportionate to the benefits to ratepayers, nor any significant implementation difficulties for local government. As such, we are not in favour of any amendment to this relief which would increase the complexity of its implementation, create unnecessary burdens for local authorities, or indeed create administrative costs disproportionate to the total benefit to ratepayers. However, I would be keen to engage with noble Lords on some of the technical reasons for not expanding the scope of the Bill.

I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for his amendments, which probe the design of the relief before the Committee. However, for the reasons that I have set out, I do not consider that the potential benefits of the amendments would outweigh their substantial costs and I hope that the noble Lord will not press them.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Pinnock and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for their support in this little group, and I thank the Minister for agreeing that we will have some discussions about it. He said that this would be to explain to us what we did not understand, and that we would then understand it. That is fine; I am totally in favour of understanding things.

I hope that the Government understand that some of us, at least, are trying to help them with this, to produce a slightly better Bill. We are not trying to wreck it and certainly not trying to place lots of extra administrative burdens on local authorities. We are looking for ways in which common-sense solutions can be found to problems which are going to occur. Inevitably, a town council will say, “Why are we paying rates on this and not that?” They are not experts, and it will cause all sorts of grumpiness. Also, it will not do, in some instances, what the Government are trying to do, which is relieve the burden on councils, particularly town and parish councils which are increasingly taking on public conveniences. So I hope the discussion we have will be two-way

The Minister said two things. First, he said that, in deciding what “mainly” means, councils should reflect on all the “relevant case law”. He then said that he did not want to put administrative and other burdens on councils. It sounds to me as if the Government are already admitting that there are going to be problems. If you have got to go to all the relevant case law and goodness knows what, it inevitably results in the creation of new case law, because it will get to the courts.

The second thing the Minister said was that the rationale was similar to that for charitable 80% relief, and that that is for “wholly or mainly” charitable use. The word “use” is crucial there, because the Bill does not say “use”, but

“consists wholly or mainly of public lavatories.”

One of my amendments talks about use. Can we look at that, and give the rating authorities a steer that it is the use which is important, rather than the other things, as the legislation does for charitable relief? That might just be a way forward.

I hope that the Government will not be stubborn and say that they are not going to change this under any circumstances, if there are ways through some of these problems. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw at this stage and look forward to discussions with the Minister.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to give that clarification. I understand the intention of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, in his amendment and support what he is trying to achieve. However, let me set out why it is unnecessary. His aim is to ensure that the relief cannot be applied in circumstances where a public toilet is permanently closed and out of use. I can assure the noble Lord that this is the Government’s intention. The Bill is therefore structured to reflect that aim. The Bill will amend only Section 43 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988, which relates only to occupied hereditaments. The Bill would therefore ensure that the relief would apply only to eligible occupied hereditaments, not to unoccupied public lavatories. As usual, local authorities will be responsible for determining the award of relief, having regard to the legislation, as they do with other relief schemes.

I hope that that clarification on how the measure would apply will help the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I will read carefully the Minister’s reply—and go one more step towards being able to pass my GCSE in business rating. I accept his assurance that what he said will be the case. As on all these occasions, if it happens not to be the case, we will come back and harass him in the House. However, his reply was acceptable; I will read it carefully and attempt to understand it.

Provisional Local Government Finance Settlement

Debate between Lord Greaves and Lord Greenhalgh

Wednesday 6th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend Lord Bethell is absolutely right and the matter is under review.

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a member of Pendle Council. Pendle is a small district in east Lancashire. I speak again from the sunlit uplands of east Lancashire but they are not sunlit from the point of view of local government finance. The Minister talks about a 4.5% increase in core spending power but in my authority, if we did not increase council tax by the 2% that is allowed, we would have a reduction in core spending power, which is grossly unfair. About two-thirds of our council tax payers are in band A, which puts that band up to unsustainable levels. It is getting out of hand. People simply cannot afford the council tax that they are now being asked to pay. What is the Minister doing about that? Will he give an absolute commitment that not only is there the £1.5 billion in the settlement for Covid-related extra costs but there is still a commitment from the Government that all extra costs to local authorities from Covid during the next financial year will be met by government grant?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I remind everyone that we have seen a seismic contraction of the economy and that many people have lost their jobs and will need to retrain. This has been a dreadful pandemic and it continues to be extremely tough as we enter another lockdown, but with the glimmer of hope that we have with the vaccine being available. We are providing grant funding that is absolutely flat in cash terms. Baseline funding remains £12.48 billion, the revenue support grant has increased a tad from £2.32 billion to 2.33 billion. Other grants have increased from £4.98 billion to £5.26 billion. That is quite a sizeable increase. There is no reduction at all in cash year on year, with inflation at relatively low levels and, as I mentioned, huge amounts of support for Covid-related pressures. I think that is an excellent financial settlement for local authorities. It really is up to the people in town halls to show some civic leadership and decide what they tax the local residents. If they choose to tax them heavily then they may have to pay the price at the ballot box, but that is democracy for you.