Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Self-Isolation and Linked Households) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Thursday 7th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

[Inaudible.]

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord needs to unmute himself.

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

Sorry, I did so, and it went back on mute. I beg your pardon. My Lords, I speak again from the hills of east Lancashire, which are not so sunny today.

The Minister said that we are not back to the grim times of last March, but in this part of the world, and many others in the north, we have never really been out of them, apart from a short time in the middle of summer. The misery, loneliness and debilitating frustration of people such as small shopkeepers in town centres continues.

Vaccination is really the Government’s last chance to show that they can do something competently in this area. My noble friend Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted talked about the logistics and the rollout. In my view, at local level it is very important that the local people involved—the hospitals, GPs, pharmacies and local authorities providing facilities—are able to operate with a degree of flexibility.

Too often we have an attitude in this country of tram lines and tick boxes, and people are not able, and do not feel they are able, to do anything at all that is not on their tick list. Yet if people have the vaccines locally, it is very important that they use them, and that we do not get a situation in which there is a surplus of vaccines in a particular place and people do not turn up to get their vaccination, or there are not enough of the priority categories available. People have to be able to use those vaccines. Every vaccine delivered locally and not used will be a disgrace. I ask the Minister to assure us that people will have the flexibility to use them and to get people vaccinated, right up to 100%.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Faulkner of Worcester) (Lab)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of Cradley, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Moylan.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Wednesday 30th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I speak from the sunny snow-covered east Lancashire uplands, where I am a councillor. The general feeling among people as a whole here is one of dismay and gloom. Since last March we have been in a continuous period of lockdowns, the northern intervention area, more lockdowns and tier 3. We are now threatened with tier 4. Apart from a few weeks in the summer it has been a year of total gloom and, frankly, it has not been working. Despite heroic local efforts it has not worked since August. We need proper tracing, the community testing on a large scale that was promised and proper support for people in isolation. Even when we get the vaccine, we will need alternative approaches, based on putting it in the hands of local people, giving them faith and confidence, and working for hearts and minds, not just telling them what they have to do.

It is quite clear, from looking at detailed statistics for the whole of Lancashire and all the councils every day since March, that the real stimulus and catalyst for the big increase since the middle of September has been the return of schools. Unless we tackle the problems in schools we will not tackle this virus, however much vaccination there may be. I suggest that all staff in schools should be the top priority for the vaccine, that schools should not return until the end of January, that we should scrap the examinations this summer already, that kids who need laptops at home should actually get them, and, more controversially, that we should scrap the present school year, reset it and start it again next September.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (All Tiers) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, try to be a loyal Back-Bencher in my party. I am not supposed to agree with dreadful right-wing Tories such as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, but I agree with a great deal of what he just said—in particular, that there are no costs or benefits in the analysis that the Government have produced. There is absolutely no analysis in it; that is the real problem. However, I told our Whips that I might vote for one of these amendments if I agreed with them, but none of them pass muster so I shall be a loyal Back-Bencher and abstain, which I do not like doing.

It has been amusing in a fairly horrible way to see people in the south of England get all upset about the fact that their areas have been put into tier 2, or even tier 3 in one or two places. Where I live, in east Lancashire, we have effectively been under strict restrictions, save a few weeks in the middle of summer, for more than eight months. It is getting very wearing indeed. The damage it is doing not just to the economy but to people’s mental health and social relationships really is dreadful. We were fairly low in the spring, then it all started up in August to a degree, then we had a huge increase in September and we became leaders in these dreadful national league tables. Now the rate is going down again. Despite what the Government say and the way that they try to match their policies and actions to the way it goes up and down and varies from region to region, I do not think that they have any clear idea of what is happening.

There was a wonderful article about Liverpool in the Manchester Evening News by Jennifer Williams, who knows more about this than most people, which I recommend everybody reads. It is 2,000 or 3,000 words long. The Government say that the restrictions and policies in Liverpool resulted in it all going down, which is why they can go down to tier 2, and it is all to do with the mass testing that has been taking place. However, the same trends have been happening in other boroughs in Merseyside, such as Knowsley and St Helens, as in Liverpool, and they did not have any of this mass testing. They certainly did not have the Army in the same way that Liverpool did. Jennifer Williams points out that the impression is being given to a lot of people that they are going to have a lot of soldiers in to organise this, but she quotes one of the directors of public health in the north-west saying that if that was going to happen across the north-west,

“we’d need an army the size of China’s.”

What will actually happen is more selective testing of people who need to be mass tested but not everybody. So, there is some hope there.

However, testing is no good unless it leads to tracing, isolating and support. Support is still not being given to people at an adequate level. An article in the Guardian today points out that a large number of people who are self-isolating are unable to access the £500 that the Government promised them for technical reasons, because of why they are isolating and, in some cases, because the councils are running out of money. In my own authority —where, as noble Lords will know, I am a councillor—there have been 538 applications for self-isolation grants. Some 217 have been paid but 321 were rejected because they do not fit the Government’s criteria, despite the fact that people are self-isolating, perhaps with their children too. In many cases, it is because they were told by the app to self-isolate but that does not guarantee the money or qualify them for it. My authority has already spent more money on the £500 grants than it is getting from the Government.

I could go on at great length but do not know how much time I have left. My problem is that I can never see the time. I have been told that I have a bit longer so I will say one more thing. If there is to be proper testing and tracing, we must not only forward-trace people’s contacts but back-trace them. In particular, if the numbers are going down, you have to stop new centres of infection or hot spots developing. You do that by finding out where people got infected. If there is a group of people all getting the infection from the same school, factory, supermarket or whatever, you go back to the source of infection and stamp it out. Local environmental health and public health inspectors are experts at that but this is not what they are being told to do by the Government. Unless the Government tell them that, it will all go down again then start to go up again. Where? We do not know because it will all depend on local circumstances.

Reciprocal and Cross-Border Healthcare (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Monday 16th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford. I thank the Minister for setting out what this technical amendment does. As the noble Baroness said, it may be very technical, but it will hit a lot of individuals hard when they suddenly realise that Brexit is about more than sovereignty, taking back control and all the things people talk about. It is one of the first things that people will realise hit them personally.

Brexit has happened and we have to live with it, but it is very disappointing that on something such as this, with only a few weeks to go before the end of the transition period, the future systems have not been sorted out. With the best will in the world, it seems there will be a gap in which existing rights to emergency healthcare and other rights for British citizens who do not live in Europe or fall into the categories that will be protected will be lost. Nobody knows what the future will be.

My first question follows on from the noble Baroness’s speech: where are we with negotiations on future arrangements? Are they part of the discussions taking place now, which are concentrating on level playing fields, fishing and so on, or will they have to wait until those are concluded—either with no deal or with some sort of skimpy Canadian deal or whatever—and new negotiations take place? How long will it be, assuming everything goes well and negotiations take place on a friendly and co-operative basis, before a new system is in place? Does the Minister believe that an EEA-wide system—or perhaps an EU plus British system, or whatever it will be—will replace the present system, or will it be a series of bilateral arrangements between the UK and individual European countries which might be different from one country to another, some perhaps having arrangements and some not? That seems a recipe for chaos. There will be a number of instances where people come up against things that affect them personally in ways they had not expected. This is perhaps the first and one of the most important.

It is important that the impact assessment to the original regulations, which was published in October 2018—it was certainly an impact assessment then—said that the number of uses of EHICs in the EU by UK residents in 2016, which was a few years ago but I do not imagine these things change terribly, was 233,000. That is a lot, although it is concentrated in a few countries. It does not seem to say how many were in the protected categories and how many were just people like me; I once fell down a hillside, went to the local health centre in the Pyrenees, got some excellent emergency treatment and was able to reclaim a substantial amount of the cost afterwards. That is extremely useful. I do not know how many people it affects. It may be that it does not affect all that many, but even if that is the case, it is a very important backdrop.

People living in the European Union, people who organise trips via package holidays, people who visit regularly, semi-residents—of whom there are a lot; people say there are 1.3 million UK citizens living in the EU, and it is fairly well known that the number who live in the EU for at least a substantial part of the year is considerably more than that—regular visitors and people with jobs there are likely to have health insurance over and above their EHIC. They will continue to have that, although, as my noble friend said, it might cost a bit more.

However, many people are going to be at a severe disadvantage: casual visitors; people on shopping trips to Calais, if people are still going to do that; people going for weekends in Paris; those taking long weekends, borrowing a cottage or house from friends; people on short family trips to see students on a gap year or an Erasmus year in Europe; those going to stag parties in Prague, where people go at the last minute; and people who, because they have long-term health conditions, are not easily able to get economical combined health and travel insurance. Even people in the protected categories will be protected only up to the end of this year—after that, they will not be protected at all. The world is going to be very different.

Then there are all the European citizens living in this country who will not be protected if they come to live here after the end of this year. They will be involved in a whole new range of National Health Service bureaucracy. Questions have been asked about how much that is going to cost and nobody seems to be able to give any answers. What I am really asking is this: what is the timescale for sorting all this stuff out? How long will the gap that people are going to fall into be?

Covid-19 Update

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Thursday 12th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, the Statement is very positive about the quickie lateral flow tests. It refers to the pilots in Stoke-on-Trent and Liverpool and the fact that mass testing will be carried out in 67 other authorities. However, the list does not appear to include Lancashire, which I thought was part of that testing. Can the Minister confirm that Lancashire is part of it, even though it has been missed off the list, and is it the whole of Lancashire or just some of the 12 districts in Lancashire? The Statement also refers to the Government’s strategy of suppressing the virus and supporting education, the economy and the NHS until a vaccine is available. That is fine but, once again, it does not home in on the people who are really suffering—close family and friends, and particularly old and vulnerable people. A recent report—released this week, I think—from the Red Cross, called Lonely and Left Behind, really shows up the misery and mental disarray that a lot of these people are in. Some have been locking themselves down and have been frightened to go out since the early spring. Does the Minister understand that, if a system of quickie testing of this kind and then vaccination are to be brought in, these people have to be treated as an absolute top priority, and that the first thing the Government have to do is to give them the confidence to take part in it?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord that the 67 DPHs who are taking the tests in the first round are those who stepped forward. I believe that they include DPHs in Lancashire, but I shall be happy to confirm that. Regarding the Lonely and Left Behind report, the noble Lord put it extremely well. Of course those are the people who have been extremely hard hit by the pandemic. I hope he will acknowledge that we have put those who are older and vulnerable at the top of the prioritisation list—there has been no ambiguity about that. They will be vaccinated first and will therefore be freed from lockdown. When the vaccination is available, it will be a massive priority to get our society open again and to get the love, tenderness and support to the people whom he described—all things that are needed in order for them to have happy and fulfilled lives.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Local COVID-19 Alert Level) (High) (England) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Wednesday 14th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, on Monday our local MP—I declare my local interests—told us all that we were in tier 2, so I signed up for this debate. Yesterday afternoon, we discovered that we might be going into tier 3 and everybody is arguing about it. What a shambles.

Whichever it is, the testing, tracing, tracking and isolating system is crucial. What do I mean? I mean maximum testing, whether people are symptomatic or not, and then rapid, quick contact of the positives. In many cases, local knowledge is needed to find these people and track them down. It has to be local people doing it, giving others advice on what to do and collecting information on their recent close contacts. That is the forward tracing, where the existing system is attempting to do it. You have to get to those contacts quickly. There is no point going to them a week later, which is often what happens. You have to give them the advice and follow up leads. Some of the contacts have leads to take you to more contacts. That, too, can only be done efficiently by local organisations and people.

The second sort of contact tracing that you have to do is backward tracing. The forward tracing is vital, but the backward tracing—investigating the source of infection—is, by and large, not being done. The amount of data that we have on it is entirely inadequate. The Minister said that 73% are household contacts. I am not sure what he means by that and I dispute what he said from the statistics that I have seen, but it depends what you mean, I suppose. It is necessary to find out where the primary contact in a household got it and to follow up workplaces, schools, streets, family leisure facilities, hospitality, shops and all the rest. Only local people with local knowledge can possibly begin to do this vital work and, unless you do that, you do not find out the primary sources of infection and you are not going to be able to stamp it out.

I think that schools are a time bomb waiting to explode. My view is that staff in schools should be tested weekly. Secondary school and sixth-form students should be tested in the same way, and the parents of children at primary school should all be offered tests. It is my belief, looking at the Lancashire statistics in great detail, that schools are an important source of the recent huge increases.

I do not think that the Government understand the systems of local government in two-tier areas. I have asked these questions before but have not had proper answers. The districts as well as the counties need the money and the powers to work with the counties to tackle this problem.

Covid-19: Great Barrington Declaration

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

The noble Baroness is entirely right. Not only is the evidence of reinfection mounting—a source of huge disappointment, frankly, but something that we have to realistically face up to—but the evidence of long Covid is also mounting, with nearly one in 10 young people infected with Covid reporting some kind of ongoing illness, and many reporting extremely worrying neurological, cardiac or renal damage. This is not flu; this is not a complex cold; this is not a posh version of a duvet day. This is a very serious infection that leaves a long effect on those who are vulnerable, and even on the young and fit. We should be very wary of it.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, what we need is some stability. Yesterday, as picked up by the media overnight, Lancashire and the borough of Pendle—here I declare my interest—were put into tier 2, which was welcomed locally by people and businesses. We now hear of discussions that, by the end of the week, we might be downgraded to tier 3. This is neither stability nor understanding. What on earth is going on? Is it a shambles?

[Lord Bethell (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the council in Pendle which, as those in the Chamber know, has done an enormous amount to fight Covid infection and has been exemplary in its approach to containment. However, it is a sad truth that the infection is spreading, particularly among the young, and making its way through the generations. You have only to look at the hospitalisation rates today to see that we will have a serious problem as the lag is complete; in a few weeks’ time, those rates will go up. The Government are taking prompt action, which is tough and unpleasant for those involved. I deeply regret the possibility that Pendle may be hit by harder restrictions, but this is a reasonable approach and it is done to save lives.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Wearing of Face Coverings in a Relevant Place and on Public Transport) (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Monday 12th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, it must be hard work for the Minister to have to come here, make speeches and deal with noble Lords all the time. Trying to do this particular one twice must be a nightmare—fortunately, he was rescued from that.

As far as public consent is concerned, masks are one of the few successes of the Government’s policies and strategies on Covid-19. There is a high degree of compliance with mask-wearing, which is to the credit of people in this country.

When we started again in September, I was very concerned—I was frightened—at the prospect of going on the Underground, remembering what it was like in July, so I brought my bicycle down to London and had a wonderful fortnight cycling in, during the day. My daughter told me that if I brought my bicycle to London, it would be stolen, so I took precautions against that. It was not stolen, but somebody had a go at it and tried to smash it up and I had to take it home to be repaired. I took courage into my hands and went on the Underground. I have to say that, at the moment, the Underground is a safe environment. I have been coming down on the west coast main line, as I did this morning, and I worry how long those trains will run for when it is only me in a whole carriage. At least the public transport I use is safe, and almost all the people I see on it are wearing masks and behaving sensibly. That is good.

The problems seem to be in supermarkets and similar retail premises. People go on social media and get all het up about people not wearing masks in those places. The answer of the operators of retail premises is that they cannot force people to wear masks. But what they can do, and sometimes do do, is refuse to serve people. If the rule was that you could not be served in such places unless you were wearing a mask, it would be much easier to enforce. They would simply say, “I am sorry, I am not serving you.” It is not difficult to sort that out, so the Government ought to think about that and do it.

I am not someone who will march along the street behind the Great Barrington banner; I think that they are going overboard in what they are saying, though some parts are quite sensible and ought to be taken on board. Generally, there are too many people, on all sides, who are proclaimed as experts and believe that they are right about every aspect. Whether they are professor this, doctor that, or even professor-doctor something else, everybody in this debate, and everybody going on television, ought to have a great deal more modesty about what they are putting forward. The truth is that we do not know a huge amount about the virus and the illnesses that it causes, and we will not know everything for a long time, if ever. Therefore, instead of saying that this is necessary or this is essential, it would help if people had greater modesty and relied on evidence when we can get it.

The problem is that, increasingly, what is put forward as evidence, including the statistical stuff, varies according to where you go. A great deal of the evidence that we need is simply not there. I look at the PHE surveillance report every week. It is a mass of exciting graphs, many of which are put up on our television screens by various organisations. But the crucial evidence that is not known, which I think the Minister referred to in his speech, is how much of the primary transmission of this virus—the real source of it—comes from different elements out in the community.

We are told that it is almost all community transmission now—that while transmission within the health service has not been eliminated, it has been substantially reduced. We are told that care homes are being dealt with, so the two huge problem areas from before have been dealt with. But do we really know how much is coming from shopping, from hospitality, from sporting events and, if I dare say it, from schools—an area that we are not allowed to talk about—and so on? Also, how much of it is essentially among families? I think that family transmission is secondary and, as the Minister suggested, the virus is being brought into homes and then spread in that way. I do not think we know, and that is because the testing and tracing being done does not look backwards; it looks forwards. Environmental health officers can do the job of finding out where the virus is coming from in the first place. There is a huge amount of evidence about this that the Government really need to look at seriously.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Russell of Liverpool) (CB)]

Since the noble Lord, Lord Bowness, has withdrawn from the debate, I now call the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (North East of England) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Monday 12th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

My Lords, I support and underline everything that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, has just said. This is the latest set of local area statutory instruments that we seem to discuss on almost a daily basis. Yet again, they are out of date—it may be a little known fact, but this is actually now called the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (North East and North West of England) Regulations 2020 as a result of an amendment in another obscure statutory instrument that we received. This illustrates the confusion about the whole thing. If the new initiative that may be announced this afternoon provides more consistency and makes these things easier to understand, that, at least, will not be a bad thing. I will not talk about childcare today; I think we will want to talk about that when we discover what is being proposed today.

I do, however, want to talk about test and trace. I believe it is now generally understood that, whatever restrictions are imposed and whatever the legal background to them, an efficient, well-run and successful system of testing, tracing, tracking contacts and isolating as appropriate is key to tackling the coronavirus problem. It is clear that whatever claims are made about the number of people who have been tested and all the rest of it, the system throughout the country is a shambles. This has to be tackled, and I am sure that everybody wants that. The key to it must be to do it a local level and to involve the skills and knowledge of those who do it week by week as part of their normal jobs—not in the case of coronavirus but in the case of food poisoning and other outbreaks of disease. They are trained people and they know what to do.

As an illustration of how shambolic it has been, I want to go through what has happened in my own patch in Pendle, which of course is in the north-west and not in the north-east. Pendle Borough Council was desperate to get involved and to use its expert staff in setting up a proper system. It is about a month now since the Government, the authorities and the county agreed that we could do this. The first thing that we discovered was that where the local system identified contacts from positive cases—all of which had been sent down from national level, being cases which the so-called NHS Test and Trace system had not been able to reach, so they were the difficult ones; they were coming late but nevertheless quite a few of them were contacted—those contacts had to be sent back to national level to be dealt with by Serco or whoever in their call centres, even if they were in the same families or in the same street or working in the same factories, and even if local people using local knowledge could have contacted and traced them much more quickly. I would like an assurance that this nonsense has now been stopped, and that if there are to be a lot of local councils doing this work locally, they will be able to follow up the people they have found, because, otherwise, it is a nonsense.

To have a proper testing and tracing system, it is necessary that there are sufficient testing stations locally. One thing that people in Pendle did was set up four stations. That number is now going down to two because, in the case of the community testing station, the Government are refusing to send out any more testing kits, so it has to close, and of the three that come under the Government, they have closed one. We have gone from four to two despite the fact that our numbers are still going up alarmingly. It needs to be taken seriously; it needs to be done properly. Unless it is, nothing else will succeed.

Health Protection (Coronavirus, Collection of Contact Details etc and Related Requirements) Regulations 2020

Lord Greaves Excerpts

Wednesday 7th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greaves (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I support everything that my noble friend Lady Barker said and declare my interest as a local councillor, in view of what I am going to say.

There are serious civil liberty issues here, serious data protection issues and, more to the point, serious issues about operational practicality, but I do not want to say more about those things, except: does it mean that everybody who is involved in collecting this information has to register with the Information Commissioner as a data controller? What is happening to make sure that happens, if that is true?

I really want to talk about the problems that issues like this cause in areas with two-tier local government, where there is the county council—the Health and Social Care Act set a public health function at county level—and the districts, which have always been the local public health bodies. The old public health inspectors, 45 years ago, became environmental health officers, but they are still there and do the work. They are the people who, for example, are skilled and trained in tracing infectious diseases locally, but the Government really have not been using them as well as they should have been during this pandemic. When it comes to checking premises such as pubs, restaurants and all the rest which are listed here, it is the environmental health staff from the district council, who do that anyway —for example, food standards inspections—who will be doing this work in many areas. They are employed by the district councils, but Regulation 4 on “Interpretation” states that

“‘local authority’ means … (b) a district council in England for an area in which there is no county council”.

Otherwise, it is a county council.

On power to close premises which are not carrying out all the distancing regulations—pubs, for example—it is the county council and the county officers who possess the powers, but it is often the district council officers, who are on the ground and know the patch in a way that county officers do not, who will be doing the legwork and investigations and deciding that a pub needs to close. The same will be the case in checking that data collection—names and addresses under this regulation—is being carried out. The people who do the work are from the district, but the people who have the powers to enforce are at the county. This is causing delays and extra unnecessary bureaucracy. If the districts were given the power alongside the county, this would be solved, and I hope the Minister will look at it.