Electricity and Gas (Energy Company Obligation) Order 2012
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland
Lord Grantchester
While the Minister reflects on another point, we are trying to get uptake by consumers. I wonder whether he has researched the situation as far as consumers are concerned. I am sure the Government could take steps to make sure that penalty charges are not a feature of the Green Deal plan.
Lord Marland
We want at all costs to avoid penalty charges for a private scheme. It is therefore not really for the Government to indulge in imposing penalties. We are monitoring it, as noble Lords have insisted, and I completely agree. We are going to review the whole thing regularly but, in particular, in 2016. If, for example, in the private rented sector, things are not going as we hoped, we must, where possible, enact to impose penalties.
The thing I am completely stumped on is consequential loss. It needs greater amplification for me to understand the issue, so with the indulgence of noble Lords, perhaps we can do it at a separate time. I hope noble Lords will forgive me because I need to understand the question in more detail in order to give a satisfactory reply.
Energy: Tariffs
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland(12 years, 12 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Marland
I do not think that my colleague, the Energy Secretary, is in for building wind turbines yet. Clearly, there is a framework for doing so. It will not be a decision made by him: it will be for communities to decide whether they want to have onshore wind in their community. But it is part of the Government’s policy that we should continue to have them. That I think answers the second question.
On the first question, this Government are committed to green energy policies. It is part of our endeavour to have security of supply, which we had in the good old days of oil on tap but do not have any more. It is very difficult to compare what the price of green energy would be against the cost of the increased oil price which we no longer have.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, is this not a matter of such urgency that it should not wait until 2012? With this winter seeing the highest fuel and energy prices, and given the increasing levels of fuel poverty identified by Professor Hills, could not the Government look at the level of cuts they are now imposing on winter fuel payments?
Lord Marland
I do not think the Government are making cuts in payments to the vulnerable, which I think is the general tenor of the noble Lord’s question. Let us be fair. We have the warm home discounts worth £120 which go to 600,000 homes; we have Warm Front which is still at around £100 million; we have winter fuel payments worth around £100 for those of retirement age, and if you are 80, it is £200; we have cold weather payments worth £25; and we have CERT worth £5 billion. This Government, and in fairness the previous Government, have taken a real and consistent approach to the vulnerable to ensure that through these difficult and cold winters, everything that can be done to support people is done. I think that that is a great credit to both Governments.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I join others in thanking the Minister for his introductory remarks. I congratulate him on the way in which he has led the government team on this Bill and on the fact that his first Bill will soon be enacted.
With the Bill now on its last lap, and with all the opportunities that we have had to examine it both here and in the other place and the improvements that have been made at each stage, we are now able to see the coherence of the Green Deal. With today’s amendments clarifying certain aspects of it, I should like the Minister to confirm my interpretation of them and give some guidance on the Government’s thinking. I ask the House’s indulgence concerning Amendments 6 to 9, on disclosure documents, Amendment 10, on default, and Amendments 12 to 15, on data for responsible lending.
I take it from the amendments that it is the Green Deal provider and his or her finance company that makes the payment risk decision on whether to give the go-ahead to a green deal on a certain property. Under Amendments 6 to 9, the Green Deal provider has to disclose detailed information to a consumer taking over a property; under Amendment 10, clarity is provided regarding who is liable in a default situation; and under Amendments 12 to 15, the Green Deal provider can, following the consent of the present or intended future bill payer, be advised by the energy company collecting the Green Deal payment regarding their payment history.
From these Benches, we are keen to see the legislation and the Green Deal a success in improving the energy efficiency of the nation’s housing stock and buildings and reducing the demand for energy. Given that Green Deal improvements are to be paid for over 20 years, I can envisage certain properties generally populated on a more short-term basis becoming problems, even given that it may be the landlord in these circumstances who gives the go-ahead for the Green Deal improvements. Given that the Green Deal loan attaches to the property, and that there is an element of risk-taking on the part of several participants, will the ultimate assessment of risk be made on the property or on the bill payer, who could pass on the payment? Has the Minister sense-checked the Green Deal in the marketplace and seen the results of the pilot scheme in Sutton, where nearly half the homeowners who expressed interest subsequently turned down the opportunity to participate?
Lord Marland
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for their contributions. I am grateful particularly to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, for her further searching and detailed questions, which will help us all better to construct the Green Deal. As we said in Committee and at every stage of the Bill, consumer protection is at the very heart of the scheme. I echo the noble Lord, Lord Whitty—who recognises the consumer position better than anyone having been chair of the consumers’ body—in saying that we must not make any early mistakes. He is quite right about that, and that is why this and future debates on this subject will be so valuable in creating a Green Deal that is fit for purpose.
I confirm that we will report annually on the take-up of the scheme. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, mentioned the Sutton housing scheme. If 50 per cent of households took up Green Deal, we would be incredibly satisfied. We would not be complacent about it, but if 50 per cent took it up, I think that we would all say, “Well, we’re moving in the right direction”.
As I said earlier, consumer protection is at the heart of the scheme. It is therefore fundamentally important that we have a code of practice that protects the consumer and provides a pathway for them. The assessors have to deliver and the consumer should be protected. I make the commitment on record that I shall be very happy to engage, as we have throughout the passage of the Bill, with all sides of the House in establishing the code of practice and ensuring that it is fit for purpose for the Green Deal.
The noble Baroness mentioned apprenticeships. Clearly, a good many of our MPs in the other place felt that apprenticeships were fundamental and therefore voted against the Government on this point, and one can only agree with them.
The issue of loan interest rates is difficult; there is no point in pretending otherwise. My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding got to the heart of the whole matter of borrowing for the consumer over a 20-year period. We have to remind ourselves that this is a market-driven proposition and that, therefore, the market, as it does in every other form of lending, will come up with a rating structure. If the Government try to confine that market by imposing restrictions and limitations on interest rates, they will shy the market away from it. The whole point is to encourage the market to react to this.
I wholeheartedly agree with my noble friend, as I do on virtually every occasion—I think that there was only once where I disagreed with him—that it would be wonderful to encourage people to pay off debt. Debt is at the core of this society’s problems at the moment. He knows that—we all do. I would be very keen to find a way to do that but unfortunately it is not within the powers of our department in the Bill. It goes to a far wider remit. It is for BIS and the Treasury to grapple with the serious problem that we have but it is a good point.
It seems a little churlish now to move to the subject of ventilation, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, frequently raises. This is part of the product offering that I am sure will be available as we roll out a range of products that will be acceptable within the Green Deal. He knows that our department is very sympathetic to the matter of ventilation as being at the heart of improving the build quality of a house. As I said, and to repeat the words of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, it is important that we give confidence to the market so that it can deliver but also that, as my noble friend Lady Parminter kindly said, we continue to work together to ensure that this Green Deal is a roaring success.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I beg the House’s indulgence to ask the Minister further questions on Amendment 18. Has he envisaged an accreditation body for the Green Deal scheme? Has he only envisaged some administrative functions being undertaken or will such an accreditation body undertake any overarching role acting to co-ordinate, oversee and drive forward the objectives of the Green Deal? While the Minister may answer that the market will provide, the success of this initiative would be enhanced if there was a body that could take ownership of the task.
Lord Marland
My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that we are working with UKAS—the United Kingdom Accreditation Service—to have an overarching effect on this particular Green Deal. I, too, beg the House’s indulgence in responding to something that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, asked me earlier: charities are included in the Green Deal. I apologise for not answering that earlier. It occurred to me as I sat down.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, it is important to promote the coexistence of UK oil and gas interests with offshore renewable energy expansion. We all want to maximise the growth of both sectors in the UK and thereby to enable the UK to benefit from sustainable electricity supply, strong oil and gas revenues and job creation in both sectors. As I understand it, there is an imbalance in the rights under the lease, according to whether the lease is in the hands of the oil and gas industry or the renewable wind industry. Where the oil and gas industry has an existing lease from the Crown Estate, the renewable industry can encroach on that territory only through commercial negotiation. Where the renewable industry has the lease, a clause in that lease gives the Secretary of State powers to terminate offshore wind-farm leases in favour of oil and gas and does not specify whether compensation would be due or how that amount would become due. This causes alarm in the renewable offshore wind industry that it could stifle investment in developing sites.
My noble friend brings forward his amendment to resolve the situation through the operation of a compensation scheme to cover the situation where the Secretary of State may be minded to terminate a lease in favour of the oil and gas industry. This scheme would give renewable developers the assurance that they feel they need to overcome reluctance to invest in developing a lease where it could be thought encroachment may happen from oil and gas operations. We understand there has never been—and, indeed, there is unlikely to be—such an occurrence. However, the renewable industry has the perception that the possibility of an early termination is detrimental to its financing and the exploitation of leases. This amendment seeks to end that uncertainty and uneasiness in the investor market.
I am sure the Minister would want to find a way to end the antagonism between the two key developers in the operation of leases. Can he give further assurances today, or even offer to facilitate a meeting with his department, so that the two protagonists could agree and cement a way forward?
Lord Marland
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for pointing out this particular area. We find ourselves perhaps in the crossfire between two interested bodies: RenewableUK and Oil & Gas UK, both of which are fighting for their own corners.
I am afraid I am attracted by the second option—I think it was the second option—to carry on the dialogue. We do not believe that the issue has been going on for six years, but I am very grateful for the historical information, which officials had not imparted to me. I think it is attractive for us to carry on the dialogue and, I might say, knock heads together, because it is important that we get these boundaries clearly defined. As the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, and the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, both said, this is a complex thing that cannot be done quickly and needs negotiation. It needs both parties to come to the table to help us find the correct solution. The Government are immensely committed to it because it is important and therefore I am extremely grateful that this matter has been raised, but noble Lords have our assurance that we are pressing on with the negotiation. We intend to have a resolution, particularly as the renewables industry develops, as soon as possible, but we are in earnest.
I want to clarify something from Hansard that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said my noble friend Lady Northover said. Let me read out—another rare event for me—what the statement, in case he hears it incorrectly, should have said: I am happy to repeat the assurances we gave in Committee that where the oil company is not prepared to offer appropriate compensation, the Secretary of State will not intervene, on behalf of oil companies, and therefore the oil and gas development will not be permitted. I hope that clarifies that fundamental point.
With that, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland
Lord Marland
My Lords, we come to yet another huge group of amendments that the Government have tabled, which recognise the points made in debates in Committee and at Second Reading.
These amendments serve to clarify the powers currently set out in Clause 67. They pertain to the Secretary of State’s ability to transfer from “the Authority” to himself or another body the administrative powers and responsibilities for the energy company obligation. The authority is defined as the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority, the functions of which are presently carried out by Ofgem. The Government are currently reviewing the role of their various delivery bodies, including Ofgem, and it would be helpful to have powers already available that would enable us promptly to take account of the results of that review, thus ensuring certainty for those being regulated by the ECO.
In tabling this amendment, we are in no way prejudging the outcome of the review. This series of amendments refines the policy objective contained in Clause 67 by enabling the Secretary of State to transfer directly to another body, or to him, the functions currently performed by the authority. The refinement will preclude the need to make two sets of orders—one establishing the ECO and another moving some or all of the authority’s functions to another body or to the Secretary of State. The process for doing so has been streamlined. I beg to move.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for his explanation of what is indeed an extensive list of amendments that address issues touched on in Committee. The amendments are necessary to ensure that future recommendations of the Government’s delivery review can be implemented without unnecessary delay and without causing unnecessary uncertainty to those energy companies caught by the future energy company obligations. It is possible that the Government’s delivery review may conclude that administrative responsibilities for the ECO should be transferred to a body other than the authority, which is currently Ofgem. This series of amendments enables any future ECO to be administered by “the Administrator”. The amendments make the authority the default administrator but give the Secretary of State a power to transfer the administrative functions away from the authority and place them on another body, or to transfer the functions to himself. We are content with these amendments.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland
Lord Marland
My Lords, this is a valuable amendment. It is clear that we have to have a course of action if things do not go correctly. At this point in the process, though, it is fundamental that we work out what the sanctions are before we establish the process. Because at this point we have not established the sanctions, we cannot yet establish the process. It will take us some time to work this through; noble Lords in the Opposition know that we are at an embryonic stage with this. It is fundamental and we are committed to making sure that there is a right of recourse and there are sanctions. As the Bill progresses and we get into secondary legislation, I know that the picture will be much clearer, and I agree that that is important. I hope that that answer gives noble Lords confidence that we acknowledge where they are coming from and that we are taking steps to deal with it, and I hope that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Grantchester
I am grateful to the Minister for his recognition and acknowledgment that this is an important area that still has to be filled in with greater clarity. We know that there are many opportunities yet for the Bill to be so amended, and even for part of it to come forward in the regulations. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland(13 years, 9 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Grantchester
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, for tabling his amendment today, as both he and I mentioned it at Second Reading last year. The Minister replied in that debate that he was actively looking at a licensing system. I trust that he will be able to update us today with a positive proposal. As we know, the industry has spent £4 million of the £6 million allocation from our previous Labour Administration, and from the remaining £2 million, the Conservative-led Government have cut the funding by 50 per cent to £1 million with no arrangements in place thereafter.
The noble Lord, Lord Judd, has already updated us on one such proposal. My noble friend Lord O'Neill will also know that geothermal energy has been tapped into since Roman times, with the enjoyment of hot springs, and shallow geothermal projects such as ground-source heat pumps are slowly growing. Even conservative estimates calculate that deep geothermals a few kilometres down could provide 10 per cent of the UK's electricity. It operates 24 hours a day and is always hot; emission levels are virtually non-existent and it should not run out. We agree with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that the timing in his amendment specifying within 18 months gives an unnecessarily long leeway within which the Secretary of State could operate such a system. We would support a shorter timeframe.
I would also add to the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Lea that perhaps we could look at increasing the feed-in tariff threshold to 10 megawatts and include a deep geothermal tariff of 23p. If the Minister's plans have extended that far, he could update us on what those might be. We look forward to that.
Lord Marland
My Lords, welcome back to what I hope will be the last day of our Committee stage. I also welcome back the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon. I hope that her foot is much better. Should we have a vote later today, a number of coalition Peers will be very happy to push her into the Chamber in her wheelchair to ensure that, for once, she goes into the right Lobby.
The coalition Government welcome this amendment. I have telegraphed this before in various debates that we have had on the subject. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is a recognised expert and, as usual, is thumping the drum for Cornwall. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for thumping the drum for the north-east, which I looked at very closely and from where I have also had representations. The noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, is absolutely right that capital moves within countries and, if we are to take this matter forward, we should do it as quickly as we can to look at the possibilities.
To answer a number of questions, geothermal does benefit from two ROCs. There is financial support available. As recently as December, we gave grants to Keele, Newcastle and Southampton universities to continue their activities. I hope that that deals with part of what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester said.
As I have said before, we are looking actively at the practicalities and, in particular, the legal aspects. In fact, only the other day we looked to see whether we could use the Irish licensing system, legal system and legal documents to do it, but it is a huge amount of work. It is not a question of just adopting their system and using it as a template. Unfortunately, because the UK legal system is silent on this issue, we start with a blank sheet of paper and have to create our own licensing regime, which, those of you who have been in government will know, is quite complex.
Given the potential complexity of the licensing scheme, it is my proposal that the Government continue to work on this issue and to take the matter away. I can assure noble Lords, as I have done in the past, that looking closely at trying to find a regime that suits is something that has my sympathy and support. I am very grateful that we should have the scientific evidence that the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, mentioned to support this excellent amendment. However, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Grantchester
The noble Lord mentioned two ROCs as a subsidy to the industry. My understanding from submissions I have received is that the industry feels that this is insufficient. Has his department looked at increasing this? The submissions asked for these to be upgraded to four.
Lord Marland
I am sure that all industries are keen to upgrade the amount of ROCs that they get, but we consider that a very suitable figure at this point.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland(13 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, I asked the Minister whether he had anything in mind regarding consumer protection in the field. Perhaps I could press him again on that, because I understand that some consumer protection provisions are contained in the Energy Act 2008. Does he think that they are sufficient, or will they be repealed? As we all appreciate, energy companies are working on behalf of their shareholders rather than consumers. What discussions has the Minister had with consumer groups in addition to those with energy companies?
Lord Marland
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, for his commentary on this issue, which partly answered the question of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. It is mutually beneficial to both parties that smart meters are introduced. As I mentioned, Ofgem has consulted all groups closely to find a way forward. It is for it to report and to determine whether there should be a tightening of existing powers under the Energy Act following its spring package.
The total financial benefits of introduction are as yet unknown. There are a number of ways in which one could look at them. An executive of British Gas told me this morning that, when she was young, her father used to sit her down in front of the electricity meter to see it going round and round and to show the cost that was being incurred in the household. As I have said, I have sat my own children down and said, “Look, this is what’s going on”—I have one of those little boxes, which I commend to your Lordships. They are horrified that, at one point, it shows 298 an hour and then, at another, 130 an hour. There will obviously be a lifestyle change, which we cannot begin to assess, as people seek to reduce the cost of their electricity. I discussed with Centrica this morning the likely impact on bills. We estimate that there will be a saving of £14 to £15 on an electricity bill net of the cost of installation.
Lord Grantchester
I thought that I had explained in my opening remarks that we could well understand that they could be thought to have been included in the Bill already. However, for the reasons that I outlined, we wished to make sure that the words “renewables and low-carbon generation” are included to underline their importance in the energy mix of the future.
Lord Marland
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his amendment, but the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, puts it rather succinctly. Obviously, at the moment, we are carrying out a serious consultation on electricity market reform, and these vital subjects are part of that consultation process. Whereas I completely support the thrust of these amendments and the importance of these sources in the general electricity market, I think that the noble Lord will agree that this is a matter for the electricity market reform consultation, where we are grateful for any views or comments in this area. I hope that, on that basis, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister; I quite well anticipated his reply and the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin. I am happy to beg leave to withdraw the amendment at this stage.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland(13 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Grantchester
I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, for bringing forward her amendments. I echo her opening words on the private rented sector, as we on this side of the House have also received considerable approaches from organisations that want us to look diligently at that sector. We take encouragement that the Government are now looking at those issues. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, we think that several such properties could be adequately improved at no great cost. We have also received a lot of submissions asking that we look carefully at this issue.
We also thank the noble Baroness for bringing the attention of the Committee to the issues around the Housing Act. On this side, we initially thought that all eventualities would be covered, so we thank her for drawing our attention to that. Along with the noble Baroness, we would wish, in so far as is possible, for all housing, including rural housing, to be brought within the ambit of the Bill. Will the Minister confirm that other types of housing, including in the mining industry, will be covered under the provisions?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland)
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Maddock, for moving Amendment 20E. She comes with a great wealth of knowledge of this sector, which is always much appreciated. In particular, her opening remarks welcomed some of the action that we are taking in this sector.
On the issue raised by my noble friend Lady Parminter, I should like to pick up the issue of the review at a later amendment.
I am glad to see that the Minister, my colleague Mr Gregory Barker, who will be taking this matter through the other place, has come to see how it is done properly here in the Upper Chamber. He will learn a lot from being here.
Amendments 20E to 20K all seek to amend Clause 35 by expanding the range of tenancy types and dwellings covered by the provisions in the Bill relating to the domestic private rented sector. Clause 35 lays the foundations for the provisions in the private rented sector by clearly defining what we mean by “domestic private rented property” and “non-domestic private rented property” in England and Wales for the purposes of this Bill. The domestic private rented sector is currently defined by the two most common types of tenancy arrangements in the sector: assured tenancies and regulated tenancies. We want to capture the largest range of private rented sector properties; we do not want to unintentionally exclude properties. I will now consider them in turn.
Amendments 20G and 20J would apply to accommodation provided for agricultural workers under either an assured agricultural occupancy, as defined in the Housing Act 1988, or a protected occupancy, as defined by the Rent (Agriculture) Act 1976. Those will be included in the definition; they do not need to be referred to specifically. I hope that that deals with the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock.
Energy Bill [HL]
Debate between Lord Grantchester and Lord Marland(13 years, 10 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Lord Grantchester
I am sorry, but we had a few concerns over some of the clauses. We did not want to draft a specific amendment, but we wanted to raise our concerns under the stand part debates. The first concern indeed relates to Clause 7. On our team’s side, having debated this clause, we are a little concerned whether we have identified an inconsistency. I will explain and the Minister can then perhaps satisfy us that we have not misread the situation. Clause 7(3)(a) requires that,
“the improvements installed meet the standard specified in the code of practice”.
The debate on Monday seemed to us to suggest that there was not a standard specified in the code of practice. Nevertheless, we want consistency and a consistent approach. We understood from the debate on Monday that there was not a standard to be specified in the code of practice, so we were concerned to clarify whether we misunderstood or whether there has been an error in drafting on that principle.
Lord Marland
I am grateful to the noble Lord for raising this matter. Perhaps I may take it away and respond to him later. It is a technical matter and, rather than reading the answer now and taking up the time of other noble Lords, I will commit to doing that. I thank the noble Lord for bringing the matter to our attention.
Lord Marland
There are two extremely valuable points here. If I may, I should like to defer the discussion on smart meters because there are a number of later amendments about them. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said, it is important that we focus on this part of the Bill, Which is about the prepayment meter. It is fundamental that we get this bit right, and get smart meters right later. Of course, we need to have in our mind on joined-up thinking, and the two interrelate.
Through the Green Deal, people who pay bills through smart meters first receive information about extra payments that they incur as a result of meters being installed or existing Green Deal plans. We intend that the Green Deal charge can be collected by energy suppliers through all existing payment routes, which include prepayment meters as well as quarterly credit cards, which were mentioned earlier.
A number of licensing conditions are in place to protect customers who receive their energy supply through prepayment meters, including changes to prevent unfair price differentials between payment methods. We will ensure that all relevant protections extend to the Green Deal charge and we are working with Ofgem to make sure that that happens. I hope that that gives enough information for the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for his reply. I also thank all noble Lords who have spoken for their contributions. They realise the vulnerability of many of our citizens to energy companies using meters. I thank my noble friend Lord Whitty for further clarifying the purpose of the amendment to the Committee on my behalf. His interpretation is entirely correct and I am disappointed if I did not make it clear. We are greatly concerned that the Green Deal should work for the fuel-poor in all households, because they see that not only will they save money but that they will heat and warm themselves far better if they undertake the Green Deal. With that in mind, I would like to think clearly and look at the matter again, especially in relation to amendments that may be tabled and our discussions about smart meters. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Grantchester
My Lords, now we are in stand part discussions again, I draw to noble Lords’ attention some thoughts regarding Clause 28. When we look at the Green Deal and everything that is happening in it, the Minister has said many times that the market will provide. We are most anxious that the Green Deal is taken up and proves to be a great success, and are under debate on Clause 28 pressing the Minister to understand how the Green Deal will work and what he has in mind under delegation and conferring of functions. We are beginning to wonder whether the Green Deal needs a promoter. Lots of people are involved in the Green Deal. We have mentioned the participants, the assessors, the providers, the bill payers and the landlords, as well as situations that occur as properties change hands and the circumstances of bill payers. There does not appear to be a one-stop shop—if I may call it that—unless the Government are going to provide it. Under Clause 28 we may consider whether we need a one-stop shop and who can put out overarching material and promotion to explain and promote the Green Deal. The Minister may be thinking that his department may be that promoter. We have been thinking whether the Energy Savings Trust could be such a valid promoter.
What are the Minister’s thoughts on the need for Clause 28 and what it might pertain to? If it was thought that our financial constraints—which we are forever told about—make it inappropriate, we have in Clause 32 funding for energy efficiency advice. The Minister gives himself powers to spend money; would that allow a promoter to take up this opportunity? What would that delegation be? Does he agree with me that a promoter could help the uptake of the Green Deal? I beg to move.
Lord Marland
The noble Lord asks a very good question, which I will seek to clarify. This clause gives the Secretary of State power to delegate Green Deal functions to one or more public bodies, and to fund the work they do. It is a key clause allowing us to create the most effective oversight framework for the Green Deal.
Where public bodies are tasked with creating codes of practice required to support the Green Deal, the codes must be approved by the Secretary of State before they are issued. Codes of practice will be one of the key mechanisms by which we govern the Green Deal and create consumer confidence in it.
The clause also allows the Secretary of State to delegate administrative functions connected with the licence modification powers contained in Clause 15(3). An example would be where a public body was appointed to administer an administration fee payable to energy suppliers, as in Clause 15(3)(f). This is a key clause in the Bill, allowing us to create the most effective delivery and oversight framework for the Green Deal, and to give Green Deal participants and customers confidence in the deal as a whole. I hope that that answers the excellent question asked by the noble Lord.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for his reply, and it could well be that I am wide of the mark. He has explained the key purpose of the clause. We will reflect further on the idea that I proposed.
Lord Grantchester
Amendment 19A draws attention to the lack of detail in this clause in respect of appeals. While we acknowledge that it may be appropriate to include some issues in regulations, such as the fee payable, we do not consider that other issues—specifically who has the right to appeal, where they can appeal, the grounds for appeal and the powers of the court or tribunal in making a determination—are suitable matters to be left to further regulations that the Minister may draft. Surely, the class of person who is eligible to appeal under the clause is not likely to change during the course of time and there is no obvious reason why this should be flexible. We are interested to hear what the Minister of Justice and his officials might have advised in this area as it appears to breach fundamental issues of access to justice. It is an equally important point of principle that people should have the protection of primary legislation. We ask the Minister to put down amendments to take these comments on board and to seriously consider amending the Bill in this area on Report. It is an issue that we will be turning our minds to in the next couple of months. I beg to move.
Lord Marland
I thank the noble Lord for his suggested amendment to Clause 31. This clause requires the Government to provide the right of appeal when a sanction has been imposed by the Secretary of State or their delegate. This clause provides a right of appeal against sanctions imposed for any breaches relating to consent, disclosure and acknowledgement, or requirements set by a scheme regulating and authorising Green Deal participants, such as any future schemes for registration and accreditation and their codes of practice. This clause enables an appeal to a court or tribunal. Subsection (3), which noble Lords would omit through their proposed amendment, clarifies that we can address issues such as who can appeal, under what circumstances and to what body, and the powers to suspend the sanctions originally imposed. These are all matters that would need to be dealt with in establishing a fair and workable right of appeal against any sanctions imposed and it is important that the Bill clarifies that these can be included in regulations.
Clause 31(5) enables the Secretary of State to revoke or amend any subordinate legislation governing the jurisdiction, process and powers of any existing tribunal system that may be used to enable this right of appeal. The Government will consult fully and set out details in regulations about who may appeal and under what circumstances. These regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure.
In conclusion, I assure noble Lords that we will seek to develop a transparent and workable appeals mechanism and I hope that with this assurance the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for his reply but, with respect, he has not addressed my point. We do not feel that regulations sufficiently take account of these concerns which should be under primary legislation. We are mindful that consumers must have confidence in the situation facing them and that this is something that should be upfront in the Bill. That is the most appropriate place and it is where these aspects should be dealt with, rather than in regulations. Nor did he take up my point about whether he had consulted the Ministry of Justice over any of these aspects.
Lord Marland
We have consulted the Ministry of Justice. We would not get to this point without having done so.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for clarifying that. In his answer he referred to subsection (5), which is that regulation may be introduced that,
“may revoke or amend any subordinate legislation”.
Under subsection (6),
“‘subordinate legislation’ has the meaning given in … the Interpretation Act 1978”.
We are concerned about the overuse of regulation in this Bill and ask how far, under subsection (5), it is justified or appropriate that there should be powers to revoke or amend any subordinate legislation. We ask for clarification of the extent of those powers. I understand the Interpretation Act to merely interpret terms and not cover any policy issues. Finally, I should like to ask whether this part of the Bill been commentated on by the Merits Committee.
Lord Marland
There is no greater authority on these things than the Secretary of State. He is responsible for delegating powers. Every intention behind the Green Deal is that we get it right, which is why in matters involving disclosure, breaches relating to consent or any sanctions, the top-down authority will come from the Secretary of State. I hope that that clarifies that point.
As to whether this has been through the correct procedural process, I am not at liberty to answer that question now, but I will respond later rather than put officials through the mill now.
Lord Grantchester
I thank the Minister for his consideration. He no doubt understands that we take this matter extremely seriously and will consider further. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw.