Treaty Scrutiny in Westminster (International Agreements Committee Report)
Debate between Lord Goldsmith and Baroness Lawlor
Lord Goldsmith (Lab)
My Lords, I have a few things to say, though I recognise that there is another debate to follow. I thank all noble Lords who have contributed. This has been another debate where a lot of thoughtful things have been said, most of which I agreed with. I actually agreed with the noble Lord, Lord Lilley, that there is merit in the negotiating mandate being the subject of debate, and that has happened. I am afraid that the noble Lord, Lord Callanan, was not right that two things were missing from the report; it touches on the negotiating mandate in paragraph 55(a) and sets out the Ponsonby rule fully in paragraph 30.
I again thank all the members of the committee who participated in making the report, but I particularly thank the officials. I have made this point before, but they do an extraordinary amount of work in a very short time. If I may, though it is invidious, I will slightly embarrass her by particularly thanking and singling out Cathy Adams, who is leaving the committee and your Lordships’ service as international legal adviser. She has been an extraordinarily valuable member of staff and I thank her personally as well as on behalf of the committee.
I listened very carefully to what my noble friend said. I listened more carefully to what she said than to what she read out, if she does not mind my saying so, as there were hints of what my noble friend Lord Anderson of Swansea said, as she recognised, in her responses. I know that work is going on; I have heard that and we are thankful for it, but there is more to do. I suggest that she rereads this debate in those long hours when she has nothing else to do. I recognise that that is a tall order, but it is important, as everyone in this debate has recognised, as treaties affect the lives of people every day, to spend time on them in the way that we spend time elaborately looking at primary legislation. We do not do this for treaties, but we should. I am sure she will keep that in mind and direct her colleagues’ attention to it.
I ask her also to understand what goes into the process of writing one of these reports. I was a bit surprised, talking to officials on a previous occasion, that they did not really understand why we needed to get the evidence that we do. I know the noble Baroness, Lady Lawlor, thinks we should not, but I would take issue with that. It is important to have an evidence basis for the work done by the committee. That takes time to bring together, and it is one of the reasons why the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, was quite right to underline the need for additional time.
Baroness Lawlor (Con)
I did not say we should not take evidence, but simply that we should have a greater diversity of expert witnesses.
Lord Goldsmith (Lab)
I thank the noble Baroness. I think we have much more diversity than she is giving us credit for, but she has perhaps not been a member of the committee for quite as long as I have.
I am also grateful to my noble friend the Minister for recognising that the defence of, “Do not worry, there is implementing legislation”, is not an answer to the concerns raised by the committee. With those comments, and the kindly meant suggestion that the Minister comes back to this debate, I beg to move.