Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Prescott

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Prescott]

It was the reinquiry.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Yes, it was the reopening of the inquiry, and it happened 20 or so years after the accident.

I stress that, even if there were no obligation to reopen an inquiry, I would strongly expect one to be called if similar circumstances to the “Derbyshire” applied. Of course, I acknowledge the importance of the reopened investigation into, for instance, the loss of the “Derbyshire” both in terms of providing answers to the bereaved families of those who lost their lives and in contributing to enhanced maritime safety for the benefit of all mariners.

I understand all the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, in tabling this amendment and by the noble Lords, Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Prescott. I assure your Lordships that any decision on whether to reopen a formal investigation would be taken very seriously, taking into account the views of all interested parties, including, of course, trade unions.

During consideration of this clause in the other place, the then Solicitor-General explained the principles of how the Secretary of State would approach the decision. My honourable friend confirmed that each case for reopening would be considered on its individual merits. Such considerations would include, although they would not be limited to, the likelihood of lessons being learnt that would improve the safety of current marine operations and ship design; the likelihood of being able to identify the true cause or causes of marine accidents where these had been particularly uncertain prior to the evidence being found; and the likelihood of uncovering information that would provide a deeper understanding of the causes of other marine accidents. In short, Clause 40 would allow the Secretary of State to consider the individual circumstances of a formal investigation when new and important evidence was found, taking a rounded view of the best ways to improve maritime safety.

The noble Lord, Lord Prescott, in referring to his experience, expressed concern about the impartiality of the department and the question of fault. Now, the Marine Accident Investigation Branch must undertake impartial investigations and assess evidence, and indeed it could well criticise any department at fault.

[Lord Prescott]

On that point, I thank the Minister for his explanation. The Marine Accident Investigation Branch has always had a responsibility to investigate. It did so in the case of the “Marchioness” but the Government would not produce the report.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I think that I may need some advice from behind on that. While I am receiving that, I should mention that the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, referred to what I would describe as “crimes at sea”, which the Government obviously take very seriously.

The Government have promoted guidance on the preservation of evidence at crime scenes with the International Maritime Organization. In our view, these are matters that we must take forward on an international level, with international agreements. I very much understand the points about preservation of evidence and about offering information and understanding to families with loved ones who are in this position.

If I am not given the information now that I hope I might be about to be given, I will be in touch with the noble Lord. However, given all the circumstances, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Prescott]

I thank the Minister very much for giving a response to the last point—I could not expect him to have all the details, but at least he is aware of the problem. However, I still believe it is the right of every British citizen to have an investigation or an inquest—if, for example, their daughter has died. We should surely be entitled to report back to the people and have our Government involved in an inquest, as the Americans are doing. Our Government say, “It happened on a ship registered in the Bahamas”—but the authorities there have not had an inquest, so we should do it. I do not expect the Minister to give an answer, as it is a highly technical point, but perhaps he could just write to me with information from the department as to why we cannot have an inquest on a citizen who has gone missing, whatever the circumstances. The Americans have acted on it, and the least we could do is offer an inquest in which our own police are involved.

[Lord Rooker]

Is the Minister going to get back up with the advice he has got?

Press Regulation

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Prescott

Tuesday 8th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I thank my noble friend for re-emphasising that the whole intention of the royal charter is not to undermine press freedom. It is intended to provide a system whereby there is such a culture that the situation previously faced by victims no longer happens but that, if it does—and I very much hope that it does not—there is proper redress for people. So I agree with that. I certainly agree that the proposals are to get on with it this week. The date that has been agreed for the Privy Council to meet to seal the cross-party charter is 30 October.

[Lord Prescott (Lab)]

My Lords, the House will not be surprised that the Privy Council has rejected the PressBoF charter simply because it is not supported by all the industry or compliant with Leveson’s requirements. However, is the Minister aware that that caused a further delay? Why was it given preference over Parliament’s agreed charter? That delay was seven months and there is now another month’s delay. Is he aware that the way in which the press have beaten all six recommendations of the inquiry is simply by building in delay after delay after delay. If there are to be further consultations, we will be getting near to the general election when all leaders get pressed by the press and will decide that they have no time or political courage to implement the recommendations. Will he confirm that the Privy Council, at the end of the meeting on 30 October after Parliament has decided what these changes might be, has the possibility of rejecting it? If so, should there not be better representation on the Privy Council other than Tory Cabinet Ministers?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I think that I have already explained to your Lordships why there is a week when further work could be undertaken. As I have said, the right honourable Member for Peckham is very much part of those discussions. I hope that noble Lords opposite will be reassured that this is an honest venture to see if there are ways in which the points that the committee made can be incorporated. If not, the 18 March charter will remain.

The noble Lord used the word “beaten”. I want to reassure him that we have reached the point where, on Friday, the cross-party charter will be available to parliamentarians, the public and the press. The Privy Council will meet and the intention is to seal the cross-party charter on that date.

Press Regulation

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Prescott

Thursday 11th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I understand fully, as I have in many of the exchanges we have had on this matter, that the priority is to ensure that there is a resolution in place so that the victims can be reassured that it can never happen again. It is clearly in everyone’s interests that the committee acts swiftly to consider the charter in a manner consistent with delivering a robust and justifiable decision.

[Lord Prescott]

My Lords, the agenda, the rules of decisions, the timing and attendance are determined by Cabinet Members. They have decided to give the press charter greater priority. Is the Minister aware that there is division on the press charter as a number of the papers do not support it? It is not consistent with Leveson’s request for independence—free of government, free of Parliament and free of the press. In giving priority to this they have chosen to make a controversial political decision inside the Privy Council. That may inevitably mean a division of opinion between Parliament and the monarchy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I do not agree, although I can understand the noble Lord’s point about priority. There are due processes and legal opinion, so we have had to consider the PressBoF charter first.

[Lord Prescott]

Why?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

There was an application to the Privy Council. The cross-party royal charter could not be referred because a number of outstanding points needed to be dealt with, including making it Scottish compliant because on 30 April the Scottish Parliament asked to be included in the matter. That is the position. There is no sense of priority; it is about dealing with the matter through the procedures that are required.

Leveson Inquiry: Report

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Lord Prescott

Monday 13th May 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am aware of the representations of the NUJ and, indeed, other interests. I have to repeat that there are due processes for any submission of a royal charter. I checked the website at the Privy Council Office and I can work out how one can put across one’s views during this period of openness. There will be 15 working days for a period of openness, when people can put their views to the Privy Council as to the Pressbof royal charter.

[Lord Prescott]

My Lords, I confess not to being a full supporter of the royal charter, although I was quite prepared to accept it if all three parties got together, and it embodied the Leveson proposals. I am pleased to hear that that is now going ahead. Will the Minister confirm that, even under those proposals, there will have to be legislation before these Houses to determine the issue on damages and costs for those editors and papers that refuse to co-operate with any form of charter? Can he confirm that there will be legislation here? If that is the Government’s policy, why was it not in the Queen’s Speech, which we are now debating?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my understanding is that all outstanding matters were dealt with in discussions not only of the royal charter but of the Crime and Courts Bill before the House rose for prorogation. So my understanding is that all outstanding matters vis-à-vis the matters that the noble Lord has raised have already been handled.