Restoration and Renewal Programme Board

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, will the Senior Deputy Speaker take on board and perhaps review what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, said about having completely outside advice on how we go forward?

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord Gardiner of Kimble)]

My Lords, noble Lords’ interventions show how strongly we all feel about this matter and that we do need to make progress. Even the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, cares about the building, even if he wants a different story to it than many of us do. Personally, I believe we have a responsibility as this generation’s custodians to get on with the task.

One of the reasons why it is really important that we pass this Motion is to get the governance arrangements agreed. I do not think that we can go backwards: the decision of both Houses was that we needed to change the governance arrangements. That is where we need to be today.

I obviously entirely endorse the essential nature of scrutiny, of financial probity and of transparency. That is why it is really important that there are these layers of scrutiny. In the new arrangements, the client team will scrutinise and provide assurance of the delivery authority’s proposed annual estimate. The programme board will review and, if satisfied, recommend the estimate to the R&R client board, which reviews and, if satisfied, approves the estimate for submission to the Parliamentary Works Estimates Commission. That commission must take advice from His Majesty’s Treasury.

In addition—and I think this is helpful to noble Lords on probity—I am delighted that one of the nominations from this House is the noble Lord, Lord Morse, a former Comptroller and Auditor-General of the National Audit Office. I think I can say that he is going to become vice-chair of the programme board, which is extremely helpful. I should also say that the delivery authority has its own accounting officer, internal audit function, and risk assurance and audit committee. This is subject to the external audit of the National Audit Office.

When asked about the supplementary estimates recently, His Majesty’s Treasury described them as “taut and realistic”. Those who are conversant with the Treasury will understand that well. I would be the first to say that it is absolutely essential to have the scrutiny not only of our own Finance Committee but of the two Houses’ audit committees into the activities of the in-house client team, which is the new joint department within their purview.

Bearing in mind what my noble friend Lady Berridge and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, it is also important to emphasise the expertise and experience, and the essential nature of what we went through in having 102 applications, from a range of diverse backgrounds, for external members of the programme board. We came forward with three people who were clearly outstanding and will be of immense benefit to the programme board.

What I would also say is that it is very important that we all take responsibility; this is our task and that is why all these decisions—picking up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett—will come back to the House. For instance, towards the end of this year Members of both Houses will be invited to agree a strategic case for the programme, setting out a shortlist of options for delivery of the works as considered by the programme board and the client board. A final business case will be brought to both Houses one year after the agreement of the strategic case.

I have one last point I should mention because it is very important. The very considerable sum of money that has already been spent has provided us with surveys, which we otherwise would never have had, of the condition of the Palace, design work to inform the future end-state of the Palace and indeed any future temporary accommodation. On investment in digital capabilities—I am afraid I am not very conversant with some of these—I am assured that the development of essential tools such as information modelling is now vital to a building of this complexity and a programme of this scale.

So, in picking up the points made by noble Lords today about a range of matters, I ask the House to recognise that the most important thing is to get this moving and to get us into a better state so that we can fulfil our responsibilities regarding the custodianship of a building that is iconic not only to this country, but to the world—as is apparent to the many noble Lords who travel the world—so we must look after it.

Local Authorities: Recycling

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Tuesday 11th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, it is far too simplistic to suggest that. For instance, in Richmondshire District Council, there was a 14.7% increase in recycling rates in one year; in Tameside, a 7.8% increase; and in East Riding, an 8.6% increase. This is all about increasing the amount that is recycled and separating food waste. Of course there are financial conditions, but I suggest that there are many good examples of what local authorities are doing in stressful times.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords, could something be done about the covering of magazines, which is currently not recyclable?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, one of the key areas of the packaging industry’s work and what we need to do with WRAP is to ensure that we do not package unnecessarily and that packaging is recyclable. There are some good statistics on that—increasing packaging to 60% recyclable—but more needs to be done.

Ratification of the Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict

Debate between Lord Gardiner of Kimble and Baroness Butler-Sloss

Monday 12th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that there has in recent years been a considerable and avoidable loss of cultural heritage as a result of armed conflict? Does he not acknowledge that in 2008 the previous Government published the draft Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill for consultation? We have had 10 years since the Government’s concerns were removed by the passage of the second protocol. Can he not find some time for this? Parliament would be very keen to see this enacted.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, again I understand my noble friend’s position. It will help if I say that, because of anticipation of this country’s adoption of the convention and its protocols, it already informs the Armed Forces’ law of armed conflict doctrine and training policy, particularly with regard to respect for cultural property, precautions in attack and recognition of the protective emblem.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I am certainly not privy to the content of the Queen’s Speech. It would be fair to say that the coalition has taken forward many measures that are in the national interest. I am aware of and understand entirely the feelings of your Lordships and many outside who want legislation on this matter.

[Baroness Butler-Sloss]

My Lords, I must apologise to the Minister. I am afraid that was overenthusiasm because something did just cross my mind: is this is an issue of time or of inclination?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I think I have emphasised in my replies that this is a question of time. We have pledged that we wish there to be legislation, as indeed did the previous Government. I have read the draft Bill published in January 2008. However, for very legitimate reasons, the previous Government felt that legislation was required to deal with the economic crisis. That is what the coalition Government have done and I believe it is bearing fruit—which is, after all, in the national interest.