Rule of Law: Law Officers

Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 15th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con)]

My Lords, the extent to which these provisions might be used in the context of negotiation is for others to determine. What I will say is that I have to accept the factual matrix as set out by those who represent the Government in these negotiations. Where it is suggested that, for example, the United Kingdom would not be listed as a third party country for the purposes of animal and food products, with the result that it would be unlawful to move such food products from the mainland to Northern Ireland, and that is justified on the grounds that they do not know what our standards are when they are their standards, we then have to contemplate that the outcome of these negotiations may not only be adverse to everyone’s interests but, ultimately, amount a breach of obligations that we have to maintain under the terms of the Northern Ireland protocol.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Private Notice Question has elapsed, and I apologise to those Members who were not reached. That brings the Question to an end.

Rule of Law

Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 10th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con) [V]]

I thank the noble and learned Lord.

My Lords, from time to time, as I indicated, tensions occur between our domestic legal obligations and our position with regard to international law. Indeed, in 1998, the then Labour Government passed the Human Rights Act, including Section 19 that required statements of compatibility to be made when Ministers introduced legislation. Interestingly enough, Section 19(1)(b) had an alternative statement, which required the Minister to say that

“he is unable to make a statement of compatibility”

with our international obligation but that

“the government nevertheless wishes the House to proceed with the Bill.”

In 2002, the Labour Government introduced the Communications Bill with just such a certificate, because it was perceived that Clause 309 of that Bill could be considered to violate our international obligations under Article 10 of the convention. From time to time, we face these tensions.

Here, there is a very real tension between the direct effect of EU law pursuant to Article 4 and what would occur if we had no agreement at the end of the transition period and there was no determination by the Joint Committee as to the way forward under the Northern Ireland protocol. That is because there are other provisions apart from Article 4. There is Article 4 of the protocol itself, which determines that Northern Ireland is part of the UK’s customs area. There is Article 16 that deals with societal and economic pressures that could lead to us being in breach of the Belfast agreement. All these have to be considered.

Against that contingency, Ministers considered it appropriate to provide, or ask Parliament to provide, a means of addressing these issues. At the end of the day, it will be for the sovereign Parliament to determine whether Ministers should be able to deal with such a contingency. Indeed, it will be for this House to determine whether it considers it appropriate for Ministers to be able to deal with such a contingency.

In these circumstances, I continue in post and continue to advise, encourage and stipulate adherence to the rule of law—understanding that, from time to time, very real tensions can emerge between our position in domestic law and our position in international law. It is not unprecedented for legislation passed by this Parliament to cut across obligations taken at the level of international law. In those circumstances, domestic legislation prevails.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, I remind the House that this is not a debate; we are asking questions. If the next contributors could keep their questions short, and Ministers could keep their answers short as well, it would be to the benefit of everybody.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Keen of Elie (Con) [V]]

My Lords, that is because we will require consideration of not only the absence of a post-transition agreement, but the absence of clear determinations by the Joint Committee, which would render the Northern Ireland protocol potentially unworkable.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

The time allowed for this Private Notice Question has elapsed. I apologise to those noble Lords who have not been able to get in, but it brings the PNQ to an end.

Probate Service

Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 27th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie [V]]

I thank the noble Baroness for her question. We appreciate that the service will come under increased pressure in July and August, because of the increased death rate in the spring. Probate applications tend to come about three months after the relevant death. We are pleased with the rollout of the digital service and the response has been extremely good, with an increase in take-up by legal professionals. The system is being monitored and we will ensure that the improvements of the latter part of 2019 continue, while recognising the challenges of the Covid-19 crisis.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has elapsed.

Prisons: Overcrowding

Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

As I indicated, in all our prisons we have introduced a cohorting strategy that ensures separation and isolation between prisoners displaying Covid-19 symptoms and other prisoners; a shielding unit for those who are vulnerable to contact with the virus; and a reverse cohorting unit to ensure that new prisoners are isolated for a suitable period until they are found not to be exhibiting symptoms. That continues. With regard to the number of cases within prisons, I think I indicated before that the present position as of 12 May is that we have 401 prisoners who have tested positive for Covid-19 across 74 prisons, and 501 prison staff who have tested positive across 70 prisons. The noble Lord will notice that there is a greater number of prison staff than prisoners who have tested positive. We continue to maintain a system of social separation and hand washing and, where necessary, PPE is available to staff.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

I call the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. No? I regret that we did not get through many supplementaries on that Question, but the time has now elapsed and we will move on to the fourth Oral Question.

Vagrancy Act 1824

Debate between Lord Fowler and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 23rd April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I mentioned earlier that there is a concern as to whether we should repeal this legislation, amend it or substitute it with something else. As regards the position which has arisen as a result of the Covid-19 situation, the Government have asked local authorities in England to support rough sleepers into appropriate accommodation. Indeed, I understand that more than 5,400 rough sleepers, which represents over 90% of those who were on the streets at the beginning of the crisis and were known to local authorities, have now been made offers of safe accommodation, and we are concerned that that should continue.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

Lord Bird has a supplementary question. Lord Bird? Okay, we will move on to Lord Foulkes of Cumnock.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, we consider that there has been a truly remarkable achievement since the Covid-19 epidemic emerged with regard to achieving suitable accommodation for rough sleepers. A great deal of that work has been done by local government and other agencies and charities across the country. Of course, we would like to see these vulnerable people protected going forward. We have provided additional funding to local authorities in excess of £1.5 billion so that they can be more able to respond to the pressures brought to bear by Covid-19. That includes taking suitable social welfare steps in respect of those who do not have appropriate housing. I would be more than willing to meet with relevant Members, although I should add that the lead on this matter is taken by the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government.

[The Lord Speaker]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton. No? Lord Harries of Pentregarth.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

Following on from the question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, if Scotland can abolish this without any harmful effects, surely we can do the same in this country. Bearing in mind what the Minister said about using the law to encourage rough sleepers to find help, there are plenty of other laws on the statute book about disorderly behaviour and being a public nuisance that could be used in exactly the same way. Given the Government’s wonderful promises about housing rough sleepers in hotels, how many rough sleepers does the Minister think have not yet been housed?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

There are other statutory provisions in place addressing public order offences; the Public Order Act 1986 is an example and I also mentioned the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014. However, the evidential requirements of these other statutory provisions can be quite challenging when dealing with those who are sleeping rough. For example, it is not possible to serve a community protection notice under the 2014 Act without a prior written warning. Noble Lords will appreciate that it may be difficult to issue a prior warning to someone with no fixed abode in the first instance and then to follow that up with further steps. There is a place for the provisions of the 1824 Act, but of course we will look very carefully at all sources of opinion in respect of this matter. I reiterate that Section 3 of the 1824 Act has never extended to Scotland—only Section 4.

[The Lord Speaker]

My Lords, the time allowed for this Question has now elapsed. We move on to the fourth and last Oral Question. Baroness McIntosh of Pickering.