European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Committee: 9th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I do not know the detail. I do know that a number of the joint ministerial meetings were cancelled, but not by the Secretary of State or the UK Government. I am entirely prepared to accept that the process could be improved. Certainly, when I was a Secretary of State and we had differences of view on policy in respect of Scotland compared with other parts of the United Kingdom, we had a joint ministerial committee, sorted out the issues and reached agreement, not always to our advantage but sometimes to our advantage and to the disadvantage of others. I had an amendment down, which I have withdrawn in the interests of making progress, which suggested that there should be some kind of statutory arrangement for consultation. I can see that. But I am seeking to argue against the noble Lord, who wishes to elide consult with consent.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

My Lords—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

May I just answer the noble Lord before I deal with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas?

I understand that. If I were a Welsh nationalist, or someone who did not accept the result of the referendum, I can see why I might table amendments of this kind and cause maximum disruption to the Government’s programme.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

The noble Lord has just outlined a dispute resolution system of which he was part. He said that the council would get together and it would thrash out an agreement. Is that not precisely what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, is suggesting?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

If the noble Lord had listened to the first part of my speech, I explained who would speak for England, and that this is a matter for the United Kingdom. The difference, of course, when I was Secretary of State was that there was one Government and one party in power. I do not speak for Wales but the difficulty we have in Scotland is that the party in power is determined to destroy and break up the United Kingdom. That is its agenda. As my noble friend Lord Lang said, every single issue is turned into a constitutional crisis and is a source of dispute.

If I may, I will turn to the substance of the government amendment. I started by saying that I have never seen a Government work so hard to try to achieve consensus and agreement. They have tabled an amendment which turns on its head the original proposals in the Bill to reflect the architecture of the Scotland Act. They should be given great credit for that. I welcome the conversion of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, who is not in his place; I do not know which road to Damascus he has been on, but it is good to see his conversion and that he now sees that what the Government are trying to do is sensible. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, also responded positively to this, and made some quite interesting suggestions as to how the amendment might be improved. It is to the Government’s credit that they have brought forward this amendment—and not just brought it forward; as everyone around this House knows, the Secretary of State, David Lidington, has gone to great lengths to meet people, despite all the other things on his agenda, to take this forward. Nobody can say that the Government have not tried to move forward in the interests of getting an agreement.

My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay says that he has had a generous conversation with the Scottish nationalist Minister, and that he thinks he will take a positive and constructive view. Anyone who had that attitude of mind would see that this was a huge leap forward and would embrace it. The Government have not only tabled an amendment which meets any reasonable person’s aspirations but have even said, “We’re not actually going to move the amendment; we going to withdraw it in order for people to have a further opportunity to consult on it”. I cannot think of another occasion when that has happened on a matter of such substance.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, late at night on 21 July 1998, I was sitting where the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, is sitting at the moment, when Lord Sewel responded to an amendment moved by Lord Mackay of Drumadoon to this effect during the passage of the Scotland Act:

“This Act does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland, which may not be amended or repealed by the Scottish parliament”.


In resisting that amendment, Lord Sewel said:

“Clause 27 makes it clear that the devolution of legislative competence to the Scottish parliament does not affect the ability of Westminster to legislate for Scotland even in relation to devolved matters. Indeed, as paragraph 4.4 of the White Paper explained, we envisage that there could be instances where it would be more convenient for legislation on devolved matters to be passed by the United Kingdom Parliament. However, as happened in Northern Ireland earlier in the century, we would expect a convention to be established that Westminster would not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters in Scotland without the consent of the Scottish parliament.


If problems do arise the solution is for the Scottish executive and the United Kingdom Government to resolve the matter through political dialogue. That is what differences between mature parliaments and executives will be concerned with. That is what happens in other political systems. I cannot believe that it is beyond our wit to develop such a convention”.—[Official Report, 21/9/98; cols. 790-91.]


So the use of the word “normally” was off the cuff, and I imagine that Lord Sewel would be as surprised as I am to find that it has become subject to such intense examination in subsequent years.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The word “normally” was certainly not off the cuff. If the noble Lord looks back at the lengthy debates we had during the passage of the last Scotland Bill, he will find that there was considerable debate about the use of the word “normally” and the wisdom of including in statute what Lord Sewel said was a convention.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I think that the noble Lord misses the point. I am saying that that was where the word “normally” first originated in 1998. No doubt it has received considerable debate since, and indeed I have listened to debates on that topic.

The problem is a lack of trust—as has been mentioned by a number of noble Lords today and as has been illustrated by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, in a number of interventions—between the United Kingdom Government and the Scottish Government, and no doubt a lack of trust between the Labour Government in Wales and the Government in Westminster. It seems to me that it derives from the suggestion that there should be an imposition by the Westminster Government on areas currently devolved to the Parliament and the Assembly.

I looked at the leave campaign’s open letter of 14 June 2016, a week before the referendum. It said:

“There is more than enough money to ensure that those who now get funding from the EU—including universities, scientists, family farmers, regional funds, cultural organisations and others—will continue to do so while also ensuring that we save money that can be spent on our priorities”.


That letter was signed by Mr Johnson, Mr Gove, Ms Priti Patel, Mr Grayling, Mr Duncan Smith and many others. The leader of the Conservatives in Wales, Mr Andrew Davies, said:

“Today’s announcement is hugely welcome and is further evidence that Wales would be better off out of the European Union ... we now know that funding for each and every part of the UK, including Wales, would be safe if we vote to leave”.


Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, said:

“Those who signed this letter have no more power to deliver on it than my children’s pet cat”.


However, the referendum was won by the leave faction, and there was a proposal in the 2017 Conservative manifesto to set up a UK shared prosperity fund. The manifesto said:

“We will use the structural fund money that comes back to the UK following Brexit to create a United Kingdom Shared Prosperity Fund, specifically designed to reduce inequalities between communities across our four nations ... We will consult widely on the design of the fund, including with the devolved administrations, local authorities, businesses and public bodies”.


The word used in that manifesto was “consult”, not “agree”. Certainly, there was no suggestion that they would look for consent. Similarly, the paper published in June 2017 on the agreement with the DUP, UK Government Financial Support for Northern Ireland, said that Northern Ireland’s needs would be “properly reflected” in the fund,

“which will benefit all parts of the UK”.

So it seems that the intention, as expressed in that manifesto, was for the United Kingdom Government at Westminster to hold the money bags—the structural funds—and dole out the money as they thought fit without any requirement for agreement. The mistrust probably began before then, but that is where it was intensified.

The position is this. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, mentioned earlier the Barnett formula. If, in taking over the rules and regulations relating to regional development, the money were to be distributed under the Barnett formula, Wales would be significantly worse off. The Bevan Foundation, in its report published in conjunction with the Welsh Local Government Association last October, said that using the Barnett formula the estimated allocation of funds for Wales between 2014 and 2020 would be not the actual €2.2 billion but just €562 million. In other words, if the Barnett formula was applied to the structural funds, Wales would get one-quarter of what it was promised up until 2020. And we really do not know what will happen after that: no commitments have been made.

If this clause remains unamended, the United Kingdom Government will have the power to take over all the rules and regulations relating to regional development, agriculture, fisheries and many other areas and to change them and develop other structures as they think fit. Maybe that is a good thing, but only provided that the devolved Administrations consent to it. I cannot understand why the Government resist the concept of consent and agreement—surely, that is the way forward. I think the only reason they resist it is that they do not trust the people they are negotiating with. But they are negotiating with members of a unionist party in the United Kingdom: it does not say much for a United Kingdom if you cannot trust the other partners to that kingdom to reach a sensible agreement. That is what the fuss is about and why I support these amendments.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I want to follow on from what the noble Lord said. I am not going to talk about Wales, but one of the arguments often put forward by Scottish nationalists is that we must not leave the European Union because we are so dependent on the single market that is the European Union. I think we should focus tonight on the single market that is the United Kingdom. I listened to the noble Lord and I take his point about the Barnett formula. He is absolutely right that it is extremely generous to Scotland and very unfair to Wales. In my opinion, resources should be distributed according to need and not on the basis of a formula that has been amended according to population. But if it is to be the case that the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament are to have a veto on these matters, what is the prospect of Wales being able to get a fairer share without that being vetoed by Scotland? It is a matter for the United Kingdom Government to decide for the United Kingdom as a whole, and for the single market that is the United Kingdom as a whole.

I have to say that I think the amendments from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, are naive. We are faced with an Administration in Scotland who are absolutely determined to break up the United Kingdom —that is their purpose. We can have all the talks we want with the political Administration, until the crack of doom, but hey ho, we will find that they are saying something completely different from the civil servants. The civil servants will take exactly the kind of sensible, pragmatic, legalistic approach that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has. But the politicians have another agenda—an agenda which has been set back by the courage of the Prime Minister—which is to destroy the United Kingdom. As a unionist, I have an agenda to make sure that every part of the United Kingdom is treated fairly and that there is no veto for any part of it. We have four parliaments in the United Kingdom, but we have only one United Kingdom Parliament, and that is this.

When Lord Sewel produced his convention, it was greeted with great enthusiasm by the Scottish Parliament. If the noble and learned Lord looks at the record, he will find that this Parliament has legislated for the Scottish Parliament to a very considerable degree—mainly because, until recently, it sat for only one and a half days a week on legislation and so did not have enough time. Now we are in the absurd position where, when a perfectly sensible accommodation has been offered to them by the United Kingdom Parliament, the posturing of Ministers in the Scottish Government—which is about trying to create division and turn everything into a constitutional crisis—is against the interests of having a single market, which they say is essential to the Scottish economy in the case of Europe. Their position is that they do not want any of these powers to come to Wales, Scotland or the United Kingdom; they wish them to remain in Brussels. It is an utterly hypocritical stance. They would rather these matters were decided in Brussels, where even the Scottish Nationals elected as Members of Parliament down the Corridor would have no say. It is political gamesmanship and we would be foolish to accede to it.

We should proceed with the Bill, unamended, and ensure that the United Kingdom Government can work with the Parliaments of the various parts of the United Kingdom to preserve that single market—which, incidentally, is worth four times as much to the people of Scotland in income, jobs and everything else than the single market they purport to defend, which is that of the European Union.

This is a great deal of heat and waffle perpetrated by people who do not like the result of the referendum. They are terribly keen on referenda but find it difficult to accept the results. They argue that we have to have another referendum on independence and we have to have another referendum on Europe. I say to the noble Lord, who is normally very courteous, that to describe in such pejorative terms the 17.4 million people in the United Kingdom who voted to leave—400,000 of whom were Scottish nationalists—is following the course of his leader, who used disgraceful language to insult the 17.4 million people only this week.

I hope that the House will reject these amendments so we can get on with the task of making a success of the United Kingdom, which at last has the powers and authority to ensure that all parts of our country benefit from being able to determine our own affairs.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

That is highly unlikely, although I am sure that it would welcome this amendment.

The key point, surely, is to be able to retain a single market in the United Kingdom. No one is suggesting not devolving powers as appropriate to the various parliaments and assemblies that make up the United Kingdom, but it has to be done in a way that preserves the single market. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, asked why we should not have different rules on pesticides. Noble Lords could ask a farmer who has one half of his farm in Scotland and the other half in England whether it would be a problem to spray certain pesticides in some fields and others in others. It is surely sensible in a single market to have a common view on matters such as that. Or let us take an issue that the Scottish nationalists have been keen on, such as fishing. Some of the Scottish Government would quite like to say that all fish caught in Scottish waters should be landed at Scottish ports. How would that go down with fishermen in the north-east of England or elsewhere who had caught fish in northern waters? How would we enforce proper fishing conservation and other policy other than by international treaty? Treaties are made by countries and so far we have one country, which is the United Kingdom.

There are all kinds of issues that need to be sorted out and the way that they are sorted out is by people sitting down and coming to sensible conclusions, not by putting in the Bill an amendment of this kind, which does not actually strengthen the devolution settlement but undermines it because it gives grist to the mill to those who would destroy the United Kingdom. My advice to the noble Lord is to withdraw his amendment. When we come to discuss the amendments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and others, we can perhaps address this issue more fully.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

I wonder if I might add a Welsh dimension. The Joint Ministerial Committee did not meet from February last year until October. During that time, the department was beavering away producing the Bill without any consultation with the Welsh and Scottish Administrations about how the devolution of powers from Brussels would take place. Then we had a model produced in the Bill which even the Government rejected. They told us that they would bring forward an amendment to the Bill before Report in the House of Commons. That did not happen, so they continued to beaver away on their amendment. I do not know whether there have been any discussions since, but certainly up until the week before last, Welsh and Scottish Ministers were saying that they had not been consulted about the package that would now be put forward—no consultation. I gather that tomorrow the Joint Ministerial Committee will meet in Edinburgh, and no doubt the Government will produce an amendment and tell the Committee to accept an amendment on which there has been no consultation or discussion.

At Second Reading, I suggested that the whole devolution area should be taken out of this Bill altogether. There should be agreement between the devolved Administrations and the UK Government, and they should bring back a Bill that would encapsulate that agreement. It would go through both Houses without any difficulty. That would be proper consultation and the proper way to make law. We will come to something like that when we discuss Clause 11, because I have given notice of my intention to oppose the question that it stand part of this Bill. If by the time we get there, which no doubt will be in some weeks’ time, there is still no agreement because we have no idea what the reaction of the Scottish and Welsh Administrations will be to what is put on the plate for them tomorrow, then the only thing that this House can do is to take out the devolution principles and proposals in this Bill and bring them back when they have been agreed. There is plenty of time—a month, two or three months, however long it will take—for that process to happen.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I wonder whether the noble Lord could help me, and perhaps help the Government, and suggest what an amendment to this Bill might actually say that would meet his requirements?

[Lord Thomas of Gresford]

I am not suggesting an amendment; I am suggesting that we take out Clause 11. The amendment being moved by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, today is born of frustration; you can see the frustration that is coming from him. Obviously the opposition to his amendment will say, “We can’t have this. We can’t give Nicola Sturgeon or Carwyn Jones a veto on legislation of the UK Parliament”. I understand that. The frustration behind the amendment should put pressure on the Government to get to grips with this issue. Earlier. my noble friend Lady Humphreys was quoting Mrs Thatcher on the single market. Noble Lords will recall that Mrs Thatcher said that there must be action on this and action on that, but with this Government there is no action. Nothing is happening and no decisions are being made with which we can get a grip.

This is one very important decision and it requires agreement from the devolved Administrations. Why is that? It is because if all the powers come from Brussels to Westminster and are then parcelled out as Westminster thinks fit, it gives incredible power to Ministers, particularly if it is done by means of secondary legislation. That gives them enormous power drastically to alter the devolution settlement. I mentioned at Second Reading that the grants which come to Wales—a lot of money comes to Wales—are sent because of need. That is the criterion that governs the distribution of funds for agriculture and for deprived areas. We are used to operating a Barnett formula in devolution terms and there would be nothing to prevent a Westminster Government with all these powers from Brussels from saying, “I think we will go back to the dear old Barnett formula. We will not look at the needs of the nations of this country; we will look simply at the population and distribute money in accordance with the way we have done it up to now”. That is the sort of thing that could happen. I am not saying it will, but it could, and it would create resentment and concern for the people of Scotland, of Wales and no doubt of Northern Ireland as well. That is the issue which has to be tackled.

Wales Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Thomas of Gresford

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I entirely accept that. Incidentally, I thought that the report that was produced by the royal commission had a great deal of merit in it, but it failed because it did not carry a consensus down the Corridor. Members of the House of Commons realised that they would be threatened by the changes that were proposed in this House. I am not suggesting for a moment that a royal commission, a constitutional convention or whatever body we set up will come up with the answers. I am suggesting that we should make sure that we consider these matters in the round, so that all the arguments are understood. Then it is for Parliament to decide. Parliament should not be deciding these matters in a kind of cheese-paring way without looking at the knock-on consequences—sorry, if I am mixing my metaphors.

I was assured from the Front Bench that giving the Scottish Parliament the right to decide the franchise for the referendum would not be a precedent and would not result in pressure for change elsewhere. That assurance has not lasted six months. I entirely agree with the noble Lord that the best way is to proceed incrementally. In doing so, however, it is a good idea to know in which direction you are setting forth and where you are going to end up.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, the most striking feature of the Scottish referendum was that there was an 86% turnout and that the political life of Scotland was energised. Those of us who followed the debate in Scotland closely were aware of the contribution that was made by young people—16 and 17 year-olds—to the debate. As one looked at how the campaigns were developing, there were arguments breaking out within families, between young and old, and between friends. In the debates on television, young people were considering very carefully the issues that were put before them. They were articulate. When one looks at the result, they voted in a sensible way, as we would have thought, with a majority for no. They considered all the arguments. Contrast that with the political system that we have at the moment in Westminster. There is a lack of energy and an imbalance between the elderly part of the population and the younger part. When the next election comes along, all the political parties will be aiming a considerable part of their campaign at older voters. Why? Because older voters vote more regularly than younger people.

The campaign for votes at 16 and 17 is based on the idea that, having given young people their education in civics, politics and the political system up to the age of 16, why should there then be a gap which results in low turnouts among those aged over 18? Why should they not be given the responsibility when it comes to a devolved Assembly? What are young people most interested in? As the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, said, they are interested in educational issues; they are interested in job opportunity. They are less interested, perhaps, in health because they expect their health is for ever, but they are certainly interested in housing. These are issues that young people are considerably concerned about and they are issues that are devolved to Wales: jobs, education, health and housing. Why should young people at the age of 16 not exercise the responsibility they have been trained to accept?