Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Committee stage
Thursday 23rd May 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend. We have been clear in our discussions with him that there are two sides to this argument and great sympathy is expressed for the group in the Court of Appeal cases. At this stage in proceedings, however, the Government are retaining the position as outlined from the Dispatch Box.

Amendment 13, in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, would require the appropriate authority to notify bodies other than the convicting court that a conviction has been quashed. The effect of this amendment would be potentially onerous. It is not clear what would constitute an appropriate body or how the appropriate authority would decide which bodies ought to be notified. The reason the Bill currently requires that the convicting court be notified is to reflect what would happen when the Court of Appeal quashes a conviction. This amendment would create a difference between the two processes and it is unclear what purpose it would achieve. Therefore, I hope the noble and learned Lord will be happy not to move this amendment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I may have misunderstood but, when I spoke earlier, I understood that there had been agreement between the various parties, as my noble friend Lord Arbuthnot indicated. My noble friend said that there are “two sides to this”, but I understood that that was part of the agreement and the understanding. This is very important for 13 people.

Post Office Horizon Scandal: Racism

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Monday 19th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord. He is referring to the historical document that was released under the Freedom of Information Act in 2023. It has clearly been identified to have offensive language in it, which had not been updated since the 1980s. There is an ongoing inquiry into this. We all want to know the answer. The reason we got into this position in the first place is that people were deemed guilty rather than innocent without due process. Let us not do the same thing again.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is it not obvious, as the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said, that there has been a complete failure of corporate governance here, and the only way to deal with that in the real world is to clear out the people responsible and put in some people who are capable of bringing order and good management to the Post Office?

Post Office Horizon Scandal: Compensation Payments

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Monday 19th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Once again, we are in a situation where we are dealing with private individuals and HR. We should not be doing that in this Chamber, or indeed in television studios; individuals’ livelihoods are at stake here. We did not want to be in this position, but we have to refute the allegations made against us. A judgment will be made by the Secretary of State as to all supporting documentation, and read-outs of minutes will be put in the House of Commons Library. At the end of the day, it comes back to the fact that we need a full inquiry to find out what has actually happened here.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I have seen reports that there are still problems with the Horizon system and that some postmasters are still experiencing the problem of underpayments that created this disastrous position. My question is about ensuring that compensation goes to people as quickly as possible. Can my noble friend assure me that that will be the case and that we will look into the suggestion that this is still an ongoing problem, and, if so, ensure that remedial action is taken?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The response from management on this—and this has now been audited—is that issues with the software system are minimal, and £150 million of government money has now gone in to completely replace the system. A lot of investment is going in to ensure that this does not happen again. On compensation for victims, of the 2,700 claims in the HSS, 2,400 have already had their payments cleared—that is 85% of that category. The more sluggish category is the GLO, because those people have more complicated claims. As I said before, we have received only 58 claims from that cohort. As soon as we get them, we will process them.

Post Office Appointments: Ministerial Responsibility

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 7th February 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that: no one can disagree with his sentiments. As I said, the machinery was put in place, but there was a lack of scrutiny, inquiry and challenge from the non-executive directors, from, perhaps, the chair, and from, perhaps, the Ministers. The Permanent Secretary role is a key one because, using the public accounting model, they meet with the DBT on a quarterly basis to have that line of communication as well. There was no shortage of lines of communication here.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has vast experience in private equity and elsewhere in business. Does he not agree that, faced with this kind of disaster, the first thing any private business would do is clear out the entire board, without necessarily attributing any blame, and put in a new team of people who did not have any baggage in order to sort it out. Why do the Government not get on and do that?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Three new non-executive appointments were made in 2023 and there will be a new senior independent director appointed and a new chair. Two postmaster directors have also been appointed to the board. The current chief executive, who came in in 2019 at the point of the judgment, remains in place. We continue to have faith in him to move this thing forward quickly, with the right amount of oversight. We have confidence in the board as it is reconstituted. But, as has been said, the question is: why did the original failure happen? We need to find that out.

Alan Bates and Others v Post Office Limited

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 24th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for that. I know that there is a lot of frustration in this House and the other place on the timelines. This has been going on for a very long time—almost one generation. However, we have been very clear that we have to separate the two elements of this sad story. The immediate action we are taking is to overturn convictions and give compensation. We then come to accountability. A statutory inquiry is in place, and it will look at all the facts of the matter. At that point, a cascade of actions will be taken by the various bodies concerned. We need to understand the role of directors, the ministerial oversight and the role of Fujitsu and the auditor, EY. All that will be done once the facts are established and the Williams commission has reported.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, that is all very well and good, but is it not obvious that there was a catastrophic failure of governance on the part of the Post Office? This is a government-owned business. It is inconceivable that the board did not read the newspapers and was not aware of this. The Post Office is still operating. Should there not at least be a review of the standards of governance on that board?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The Post Office is publicly owned and set up as a limited company with a sole shareholder, which is the Government. Its governance is as an arm’s-length body with its own board, where the Government have a shareholder representative. It is clear that, over the years, not enough inquiry was made—particularly by non-executive directors—about what was going on. Why was it not asked why, pre-Horizon, prosecutions were between five and 10 per annum and then moved to between 80 and 100 per annum? The question is obvious: what happened here? As a High Court judge said at the 2019 appeal, the faith in the Horizon system was the modern-day

“equivalent of maintaining that the earth is flat”.

There has been a massive failure of corporate governance. Once we have the outcome of the inquiry, steps will be taken to make improvements to ensure this will not happen again.

Post Office (Horizon System) Compensation Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

2nd reading & Committee negatived & 3rd reading
Tuesday 16th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I know my noble friend the Minister does not want to comment on the particular case of Lee Castleton, but the point I was making about him was there were £325,000 of court costs. First, normally when you win you do not pay costs. The effect of saying that he is not guilty surely means that those costs should be returned. That has nothing to do with the compensation that is paid to him. So will costs be remitted? That is the key point. Secondly, in respect of that case, what do the Government mean when they say that things should be restored to where they would have been had this not happened? What does that mean because £600,000 is an arbitrary number? Some people lost their business, their house and their position. How will that principle, which I think is greatly to the Government’s credit, be delivered?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I commend my colleague the Postal Minister Mr Hollinrake for pushing through hard on the £600,000 because it is not for us to judge what any individual has lost; it is up to that individual claimant to make the decision about whether they want to go through the due legal process. The word “compensation” has perhaps been misapplied here. What we are actually talking about is a monetary sum to be given back which gives redress to individuals. In any particular case—for example, the case of Lee Castleton—it may well be that one can actually identify separate buckets, one of which might in fact be court costs be repaid, but within the overall settlement there will be an amount which should take account of all losses. If you have paid for someone else’s legal fees, that is a loss which needs to be repaid, so this will be tied up within each individual claim, the point being that if you do not as a postmaster want to go through the heartache and process of doing that, there is a route for you to receive a substantial sum and you can close the matter and get on with the rest of your life.

Horizon: Compensation and Convictions

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 10th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness for that point, which is well made. We have to work with the situation we find ourselves in, and this has to be moved along at great speed. I am happy to write, as I do not know the exact answer to that question in detail, but I do know that conversations and dialogue happen between the MoJ and those in both Scotland and Northern Ireland. I am happy to find out more about the precise mechanics of that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, further to the question which was asked earlier this afternoon by a right reverend Prelate, the BBC is reporting that Paula Vennells was shortlisted to be the Bishop of London. The media are very much focused on her, but there was a board and there were successive chief executives, all of which seems to be being ignored. It is really important that accountability is clear. We cannot wait for the inquiry. Does my noble friend not think that something is desperately wrong with our procedures, and with the judicial system, when it takes 20 years for this to be established, and where the net beneficiaries have been the lawyers? They have earned millions and millions of pounds, while ordinary people have been bankrupted and unable to defend themselves. Does he accept that this requires, as has been pointed out, a root-and-branch assessment of how these systems operate and the arrangements with agencies, where Ministers—far be it for me to defend the leader of the Liberal Party —are held to account for bodies with which there are arm’s-length relationships and where they are unable to execute responsibility, although they are held accountable for it?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that contribution. On the lawyers, that is certainly a point well made—it is quite extraordinary how much has been made out of this so far by the lawyers. That is why my colleague, Minister Hollinrake, has been so assiduous in coming up with a plan which allows for compensation to be paid immediately—whether that is the £75,000 minimum to the GLO group or the £600,000 for those who are having their convictions overturned—without the need to have any more legal input. That is a very important part of the process. If any claimant feels that they want to make a bigger claim than that, they will need to interact with lawyers again to do so; again, we have given a tariff and a certain cap, which will at least minimise that. On the wider point from my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I completely agree that this highlights serious flaws in the corporate governance of the Post Office, and in the role of the board and its interaction with government officials of whichever colour and creed. We need to have a serious look at this. Once we have gone through the Williams inquiry, I believe that this will be worthy of much further consideration in this House.

Employers: Fire and Rehire Tactics

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Thursday 14th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

As we have said clearly, we are consulting and there will be a code of practice. This practice is used very rarely. Even the TUC in 2020 indicated that only 3% of employers had used fire and rehire and only 9% of employees had experienced it even as a threat. Therefore, the code is the right way forward in this case.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, further to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, does my noble friend not think it a disgrace that a third of our Ministers on the Front Bench are unpaid and that there are instances of paid Ministers being fired and then rehired on the basis that they do the job on no salary? Should the Government not tackle this in the interests of democracy and fair dealing to our Ministers, who do such an excellent job in this House in very difficult circumstances?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My noble friend raises an interesting question—this is going off on all sorts of tangents at this point. Those of us who are in this House consider it to be a great privilege, those who are asked to serve the Government consider it a great honour, and we continue to serve the country as best we can.

Scottish Government: Expenditure

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The Scottish Government will argue that every area of legislation they are putting forward is within the devolution settlement. We sometimes disagree with that, and where we disagree with it vehemently, as we did on GRR, we invoke Section 35. That was the first time in 237 Bills that received Royal Assent and was not done lightly; that was done in a case where they strayed across the line and were making legislation for Scotland that had a negative impact on England. We will continue to monitor this. Fergus Ewing, who is part of SNP royalty, would blame the Bute House agreement with the Green Party—which he describes as wine bar revolutionaries—for putting forward “progressive” legislation designed to diverge from the UK, and that is what we must put an end to.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend think it reasonable that the Scottish Government, who cannot run ferry services to the Western Isles, where the roads are full of holes and the health service and education are in crisis, should have an office in Beijing? Why on earth should my taxes support an office in Beijing for the Scottish Government?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Again, this is an issue of there being no SNP representative in this House. It is a bit like playing “Hamlet” without the prince; there is nobody here to put the Scottish Government’s case. They would say that under the devolution settlement they are allowed to promote Scotland overseas, in particular in relation to trade, and that they have eight embassies that they are using to promote trade across the UK. It came to our attention that it was not entirely the case that it was only in trade matters, and the Foreign Secretary has taken steps to pull that back into line.

Scotland: Meeting with New First Minister

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord is right to call on the Scottish Government to focus on the people’s priorities. That came across very strongly in the SNP election, where it turned out that, as far as audiences are concerned, independence is way down their list of priorities. In fact, Kate Forbes, who had 48% of the vote, made it clear that continuity would not cut it. She acknowledged that the UK position is that there is no sustained majority for independence in Scotland. It was therefore rather disappointing, I have to say, to hear that in the first exchange between the First Minister and the Prime Minister yet again Section 30 was brought up. It is old tapes that we do not need to hear again. The Supreme Court has already opined on it and the UK Government’s position will not change.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend advise the Secretary of State that, in congratulating Mr Yousaf on his election, he should urge a fresh start and, therefore, it is very important that the current inquiries by the police that have been going on for rather a long time into the finances of the SNP should be concluded? There are far too many rumours, which are greatly damaging to our public life.

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for raising this topic, which is talked about a lot north of the border. It is a running saga that needs to be concluded. My understanding is that investigations are under way and that the process will continue as soon as possible.

Scottish Government: Ultra Vires Expenditure

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

Well, I know that the noble Lord is dogmatic on this point, and we agree on many things. He is absolutely right to say that people in Scotland are absolutely focused on this matter as well. I would like to report that, since we last had this discussion, there have been, as there always have, discussions between the Cabinet Secretary and the Scottish Government’s Permanent Secretary. Therefore, issues and concerns have been raised to ensure the independence of the Civil Service. The noble Lord will be pleased to note, for example, that since he last raised this issue, the Scottish Government have reallocated £20 million they had set aside for an independence referendum to their fuel insecurity fund, which is a move I think we both welcome. Furthermore, the leading candidate in the SNP leadership election has just indicated that there will be a pause to any further independence papers—on the grounds that nobody reads them. Lastly, I can confirm that the Secretary of State for Scotland has met with the Foreign Secretary to discuss the Scottish Government’s activities internationally. Both are very clear that any overseas engagements by the Scottish Government should not encroach on reserved matters, and this will be kept under close review.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend not concerned that the police investigation into the financial conduct of the Scottish National Party, in particular the money raised for a referendum, is taking such a long time?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My noble friend is correct to point out this recent development, and the police have now indicated that they are taking evidence from witnesses under caution. That procedure needs to be allowed to run its course. The wheels of justice grind slowly, but hopefully they grind fine.

Scottish Referendum Legislation: Supreme Court Judgement

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Offord of Garvel

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

The noble Lord will be aware that under the devolution settlement the UK Government do not prescribe to the Scottish Government how to spend the money sent north of the border. That allows the Scottish Government to make grown-up decisions on their own behalf and on behalf of the people of Scotland. The judgment of the Supreme Court has given us helpful clarity on the difference, which we all knew about, between reserved matters and devolved matters. The constitution is therefore clearly reserved, while the spending of £20 million in that area is a matter for the Scottish Government. The noble Lord will know that that could be the equivalent of 1,000 new nurses, 650 police officers or 600 teachers. On a day when schools are out on strike, it is for all of us to point out within the Scottish environment that the Scottish Government should be directing their attention to matters for which they have devolved responsibility.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, when I was a councillor, if a council spent money that was ultra vires, the councillors were personally liable. Given the behaviour of the Scottish Government, should we not be extending the ability to surcharge Members of the devolved Administrations where they incur expenditure that is ultra vires?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

My noble friend is an eminent former Secretary of State for Scotland and knows his territory well. He will also be aware of the architecture put in place at the time of the 1998 Act, which has been further improved by the 2012 and 2016 settlements. Within that, the UK Government give the Scottish Government the discretion to spend their money on behalf of the Scottish people, and it is down to the Scottish people to give their view on that at the ballot box.