International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Howell of Guildford

Friday 6th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I hear gasps from the back. It is exactly the same argument. The argument by CND was that if we gave up our nuclear weapons, everyone else would follow suit. That is the argument that was put. The argument put now is that if we enshrine 0.7% in law, all these other recalcitrant countries will follow our example. Interestingly, many former Treasury Ministers and Chancellors of the Exchequer have put their name to this, as have people who have taken evidence. The argument is that those fears that have been expressed are misguided and that none of the disadvantages we have pointed to will come about. Let us test it. If, after five years, we find that those of us who have been a bit concerned were wrong, the Bill can be enshrined again. Indeed, if those who have argued for the Bill are right, it will no longer be a matter of controversy and we will not need a Bill which says that the Secretary of State has to tell Parliament why these proposals fail to meet the target, and that will be the end of the matter. Perhaps we might need a Bill that has a proper penalty and creates a legally enforceable duty on the Secretary of State, which is how this Bill has been sold erroneously to the public, as we have discovered this afternoon.

I believe that the sunset clause is a way to unite us all, end the division over this and give the proponents of the Bill an opportunity to show that their arguments are valid. I have to say that I have my doubts. I beg to move.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I disagree slightly with my noble and tireless friend Lord Forsyth in that he talks about the other countries that have not set upon this kind of fixed target as being recalcitrant. I do not think that that is quite right. They are innovative. If one makes a study of where the Netherlands and Germany are going, and where the advanced thinking in America is going, they are going in a slightly different direction from those who are urging that we must have a fixed amount of official development assistance. They are saying that the whole scene for development is changing. I know that I am coming at this from a slightly different angle from my noble friends and many of your Lordships.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I apologise for interrupting. I was not advancing that view: I was just repeating the view put earlier in our debates, which was held by those who argued that it was necessary to have the target to encourage the others. I agree with my noble friend.

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Of course, the implications are that this is not the kind of encouragement that will move them because they are already advancing in different and, in many cases, more advanced directions than we appear to be stuck in at the moment. As we wind up this debate, I fear that this has been an afternoon of sadly missed opportunities. I fully accept that aid still matters intensely. It is notably for humanitarian purposes to support poverty reduction and human development in low-income countries. It is important. Many of us have fought for it over the years and we are a good development power, which gives me pride.

However, it is of increasingly limited help in building partnerships with the emerging powers and with the low to middle-income countries. The point has been forgotten that the thrust of 40 years of development thinking and aid development is to enable these countries to graduate away from development assistance, which in many cases they do not like. It does not fill them with the esteem and the power that they need to get development going.

As grants of aid become less appropriate in some countries, we should be thinking about the new forms of development co-operation that are necessary. Over the next five years, where we could have this sunset clause, all kinds of new perspectives will emerge on development; that I can promise your Lordships. As they develop, this commitment to a fixed percentage of old-fashioned ODA-able kind of aid will look more and more inappropriate. That is why I simply say I hope that, on Report, we will have a little more imagination and understanding that the world has changed. In the mean time, it would be nice to have a sunset clause of this kind. That is why I support this amendment.

Eurozone

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Howell of Guildford

Wednesday 16th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

Neither the noble Lord nor I know how the discussions between the new French President and the German Chancellor will work out. However, he has read the newspapers, as I have, and it is fairly clear that some aspects of both arguments will have to be taken into account. That will demonstrate the very point that I just made to my noble friend. The picture that has been painted of either austerity or growth is completely unrealistic. The reality is that there will have to be the discipline on which the German people and Government have led very strongly, and in which they believe for strong reasons connected to their history, combined with the necessity to erode youth unemployment and to create and restore confidence in investment. This is a balance that must be struck. We certainly hope that the leaders of France and Germany will, in their wisdom, strike the right balance and maybe convey to the people of Greece the necessity for this balance, from which there is no escape. There is no unrealistic choice between going one way or the other—you cannot.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, given that we refused to join the euro because we believed it was an ill conceived project—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

We, the British, refused to join the euro because it was an ill conceived project. Will my noble friend give an absolute assurance that not a cent of British taxpayers’ money will be spent on sorting out this shambles?

[Lord Howell of Guildford]

I can give an assurance that there is no intention of spending public money on precisely the eurozone problems that have to be sorted out by the eurozone Governments. Nevertheless, the world economy will be affected by the success or failure of these policies in Europe, and in supporting aspects of the world economy we are regular contributors to the IMF and have worldwide responsibilities. It may well be that we will contribute to maintaining those responsibilities.