Arrangement of Business

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Harris of Haringey

Monday 18th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, could my noble friend the Chief Whip confirm that the Prime Minister has told the House of Commons on no fewer than 108 occasions that we shall be leaving the European Union on 29 March? Yesterday I listened to the Chancellor on “The Andrew Marr Show” telling Andrew Marr that we were not in a position to be able to leave on 29 March. Whom should I believe? If I believe the Chancellor, what on earth have the Government been doing?

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I will certainly not engage in the continuing dispute between my noble friends Lord Adonis and Lord Grocott, who seem to have developed an antipathy to each other in recent weeks. I too am grateful to the Chief Whip for making this statement today. What he said has been helpful, but does not go far enough in enabling noble Lords to plan what their commitment will be over the next few weeks.

I assume that somewhere in government is a series of contingency plans. I would be appalled and surprised if the very able people in the Civil Service had not been working through a series of permutations—indeed, I would be very surprised if the clerks to this House and to the other place had not been working through a series of permutations. Something is clearly going on, because one understands from the usual gossip mill, involving the staff who support the Members of this House and the other place, that the first week of the Easter Recess will not be happening and that there may be Saturday sittings. They may be misinformed—I do not know where these ideas come from—but it is incumbent on the Government to give us an indication of those contingency plans for various eventualities.

Welfare Benefits Up-rating Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Harris of Haringey

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Yes, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, makes the point that a large percentage went to pensioners, but I do not hear from the opposition Front Bench a cry that we should cut the benefits to pensioners to avoid this position. The very fact that she says that from a sedentary position indicates that she accepts that.

Whatever the merits of how the money was distributed, it went up by 60%. One pound in every £4 which this Government are spending—by the way, that is money which we have not got because we are having to borrow £150 billion every year to make that expenditure—is going to welfare. To argue that it is not necessary to constrain welfare expenditure in those circumstances is, frankly, totally irresponsible. It is the worst kind of politics.

The noble Lord seeks to present people on this side of the House as uncaring and unconcerned about the poor whereas, actually, if you are concerned about people who are hard up, you want to make sure that the costs of living for them and the stoppages in their pay packet are reduced to as low a level as possible. If we follow those prescriptions of continuing to spend money we have not got, of continuing to pay more in welfare than people are gaining in increased incomes in the private sector, that is the road to Carey Street and to undermining our whole welfare system of support.

The truth is that while Labour was in office, it was paying tax credits to people on up to £50,000 a year. It was a policy deliberately designed to create a client state, and it was a policy funded on the back of a bubble created by holding down interest rates. It was irresponsible economics and it was irresponsible public expenditure. A responsible Government, faced with the windfall tax revenues that they had, would have put some aside for a rainy day. Now we find ourselves with a huge, exploded welfare budget and difficult decisions that need to be taken.

I hope that the House will reject the amendment which, while we all appreciate the sentiment, would actually do down those who are hardest up in our society and having the most difficulty. The noble Baroness shakes her head. It is the consequence of spending money which we did not have.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, I hesitate to give the noble Lord a lesson in economics, but the problem that the Government currently face is a complete absence of growth. Further cuts in welfare benefits will make that worse. One thing that you can say for certain is that the people on the lowest incomes will spend that money and that that money will then feed into the economy, therefore doing something about the growth problem that the Government have exacerbated by what they have done in the past few years.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I do not think that was a lesson in economics but a lesson in magic. If that is the case, why do we not just double welfare benefits? People will spend even more, the economy will grow and everything will be fine. The noble Lord nods his head in agreement. As an individual or as a household, you cannot continue to spend more than you earn without getting into the kind of problems that we have seen among people who have taken out payday loans.

This is the payday loan approach to government. You have a big debt, so you take out another one. You pay a higher rate of interest on it but you hope that somehow you will be able to pay it back. In the end you are able to pay only the interest. At the moment the Government are printing money to fund their expenditure requirements. That is quantitative easing. In 1997 the Bank of England held no government bonds. Now it holds 27% of the entire bonds in issue. When interest rates rise, those bonds will fall in value. How will the difference in value be made up? That will be a cost for the taxpayer. Our level of borrowing now, which will have gone up by 50% by the end of this Parliament, will have to be financed and that will come out of the future welfare budget.

The noble Lord is describing a way of robbing our children of their living standards and creating a bigger problem for the next generation to meet the needs of those who are most vulnerable. This is a way of making it more expensive to create the safety net that we all support. This is not a lesson in economics but in the kind of fantasy approach to politics that got us into this position in the first place. That is why the Government are right to persevere with this legislation. Indeed, they have been very reasonable in their approach. They have tried to protect the most vulnerable and have agreed to increase welfare payments by 1%. This is extraordinary, given that we have an economy that is not growing at all.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

Exactly.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord seems to think that the reason why the economy is not growing is that the state is not large enough. How big does he want to the state to be? It is already taking nearly 50% of everything created by the Government and spending it, and that is not enough because they have to borrow on top of that.

If levels of taxation are high, which they are, and levels of regulation are high, we will not get the growth that is required. We need to constrain public expenditure to make room for the private sector to create wealth. Once we have a bigger cake, everyone can have a bigger slice, but if we try to proceed in this way we will end up with a smaller cake and those dependent on welfare benefits will be cruelly cheated. They will find their living standards destroyed by inflation, higher costs and the inability of the Government to finance the kind of programmes that Members opposite are prepared to say now that they would support, although they are not prepared to say so at a general election.