Making Tax Digital for VAT (Economic Affairs Committee Report)

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Davies of Oldham

Monday 29th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Young. He has a somewhat challenging baptism in replying to this first debate in his new position. We all know his competence and that he always wins considerable support from the House for how he presents his arguments. However, I can scarcely recall another debate in which every contributor has identified issues that the Government have palpably failed to respond to. Nor are these minor pettifogging details; they are fundamental questions about how a government department should operate, and how a response to a committee report should be presented. The noble Lord has a great challenge before him.

I do not need to stress again the points made in this debate because we all have, strongly at the front of our minds, key issues on which we expect the Minister to make a response. The only figure I would like to bring to your Lordships’ attention—I do not know whether the Minister will bring this in as part of his defence—is that HMRC has 15,000 fewer civil servants than in 2010. Of course, we can all see ways in which government departments can work more efficiently and we all know the advantages of new technologies and so on, but a large part of that loss of people was a straight reflection of a determination to create a smaller state, with lower costs for the Government. These circumstances are part of the price that we are paying.

If there is one thing which stands out in this whole sorry saga, it is that HMRC persisted with conduct which was already causing enormous consternation not to people who were adept at tax evasion or those who employed professionals to look after their tax affairs, but to ordinary citizens applying for jobs. The report makes that clear. Their employers, or the agents working for those employers, took them on board and indicated a loan would be advantageous form of payment for their employment. That is why we have so many people who deserve the sympathy of every one of us in this House and all of us concerned with government. Ordinary people now find themselves facing charges which are not the kind of thing that might be easily disposed of by the better-off in society, but multiples of their actual earning power each year; these are now demanded as owed tax. This is a parlous position. What has been identified in this debate is just how dismissive the Government have been thus far on the issue.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Of course, the noble Lord is quite right about the substantial cuts in the resources available to HMRC. That has undoubtedly been a factor in its ability to deal with inquiries and to deal with people sensitively. However, it is not to blame for implementing the loan charge, which was passed by Parliament—by the House of Commons. Dealing with this requires a change in the law. Do the Opposition support that?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The answer is categorically yes. In fact, I was going to develop that argument briefly but I do not need to now: in his opening speech, the noble Lord made the main charge against the Government and their response to the report thus far quite clear. I utterly endorse that position. I am very grateful for the speech he made today and the way in which he obviously led the committee to produce these high-quality reports.

One of the things which stands out in the reports is that the Government found a whole series of the recommendations quite unacceptable. Of the recommendations in the digital taxation for VAT report, eight were accepted, seven were accepted in part and only six were rejected outright. However, the majority of the recommendations in the other report were rejected. The Government ought to have a pretty strong case when responding on this matter to a significant body such as a House of Lords committee led by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, but it seems fairly obvious that the Minister has somehow been shielded behind the perspective that only the House of Commons has any authority with regard to the economy. We all know the law—we all know why the House of Commons produces its Finance Act and we in the House of Lords defer to it as presented—but that is a little different from a committee examining the conduct of a government department. From what I can see, on the whole, Ministers have not been prepared to attend the committee and have been rather dismissive of many of its hugely significant recommendations.

Expressions have been made during the debate with which I have the greatest sympathy. I am not talking about the speeches from the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who were both quite definitive in what they had to say—I of course agreed with the judgments they reached—but there were other comments that strengthened my support for the committee. The noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, indicated the difference between how this part of taxation is dealt with and how welfare support is often dealt with. This is a tragedy that has gone on for a number of years, but so has welfare legislation and the great problems with universal credit, in which people who are devoid of resources are being asked to wait for weeks to get the money to which they are entitled. I was very grateful to him for bringing our attention to that.

The noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, criticised the use of the word “customer”. I too found it difficult when the railway companies started to refer to us as customers—they were not very confident that we would become “passengers” and go anywhere, but we were “customers” because we had paid for the ticket. There is a lot that we ought to seek to correct, through gentle persuasion, about the terms in which big organisations and businesses address us.

Two issues about the Government’s estimation come out strongly in the report. We can see that the Revenue and the Government are motivated by the fact that there could be considerable increases in resources through Making Tax Digital. The Opposition understand the argument for Making Tax Digital and endorse it, but it has to be introduced and developed in a better way, as the reports have identified. Those in this unfortunate position with the loan charge have earned salaries and tax is payable on them. There obviously has to be care about how people are challenged to make these payments, because many have limited resources, but there is no doubt that HMRC’s objective was to ensure that tax was legitimately paid on payments allocated to workers. The 2017 court case made this absolutely clear. Therefore we are not in any way, shape or form castigating HMRC for pursuing the issue in principle; we are concerned about the practice.

It has been quite clear from this debate that the committee has identified the department’s position with great force and accuracy. We expect Ministers to take note. We all have faith. I greatly regret the loss of the noble Lord, Lord Bates, the immediate predecessor to the noble Lord, Lord Young. Although I clashed with the noble Lord, Lord Bates, on very many occasions, I never had the slightest doubt about his genuine attempt to present his case accurately, effectively and with the greatest concern for the rights of the House. I am not so sure that Financial Secretaries in the other place have shown much respect for this body, but I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Young, will seek to answer the very real questions asked in this debate, and treat the committee and its excellent reports with the respect due to it.

Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 13th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, it can sometimes seem a little lonely for a Minister addressing the House on issues such as the Finance Bill and the Budget. He sees before him a significant number of Members of the Opposition, some of whom have had experience in high office, including my noble friend Lord Darling as Chancellor, but he may not have too much support behind him. It was interesting today to see that the Minister had no support behind him: there has not been a single speaker from his Benches. Of course the House is reasonably full, reflecting the importance of this debate and the issues—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

It is true that there have been no Conservative speakers, but that is because those in the Conservative Party are really enthusiastic about their leader, who addressed them at the start of this debate.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, that is a convenient excuse. I have no doubt that it is important to prioritise attending such meetings. However, the noble Lord will also recognise that a prime duty of Members of this House is to attend debates and actually engage in them, particularly in circumstances where the Opposition will have some trenchant things to say about the main subject of the debate. But there have been no speakers from the Minister’s Benches. That may also be a reflection of the fact that the Government Benches have largely decided that the last Budget is wholly irrelevant to our present situation.

Several noble Lords have made that point quite explicitly. Even the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, indicated that she had difficulty seeing the significance of the Finance Bill, which now belongs to the past and which was introduced by a previous Chancellor—a Chancellor who conspicuously failed in the significant tests that, had he been providing any supervision of the economy, he ought to have met. The deficit was postponed from 2015 to a putative surplus in 2019 and 2020. Growth, which he put forward in 2010, fell considerably below his optimistic forecasts. He even failed to match the growth levels that my noble friend Lord Darling presided over when he was Chancellor. Living standards for a very substantial section of our population have fallen. There have been no pay increases since 2010 and inflation has taken its toll. I imagine that, at this stage, members of the governing party are happy to see the back of the Finance Bill and its objectives.

Nevertheless, we have to recognise one absolutely critical aspect of the Finance Bill and I want to itemise that. The Government emphasised that cuts in corporation tax and capital gains tax would help investment in the economy and help to boost British industry and enterprise, but there was never a reference to any deleterious effects. This is a manifestly unfair Finance Bill. It is asking ordinary people to sustain the cost of cutbacks in crucial areas of government expenditure while tax breaks are given to those among the wealthiest in our society.

We are critical of the Bill. We were critical of it in the other place and we are critical of its general propositions here. But of course the debate has moved on in several respects. This House had the benefit of a report introduced today by the chair of the Economic Affairs Committee, my noble friend Lord Hollick, who emphasised the fact that the Government had discreet weaknesses in their position over the subject of that report. We can all see the advantages to the taxation system of modernising the receipt of taxes, but the digital economy clearly presents enormous challenges for ordinary people. It is not the case that everyone in this country is completely au fait with how the digital economy is meant to work and who have the confidence to respond in those terms. But there is no indication that the Government have any real awareness of that. In the report that my noble friend commented on, that point was emphasised.

The report also emphasised that the Government pay lip service to the concept of tax simplification. It says positive things about the Office of Tax Simplification, but not what the committee emphasised, which was any suggestion of adequate resources for that office to be able to carry out its role. We recognise that the Government have some regard for the Office of Tax Simplification. They certainly accepted amendments to place greater emphasis on the role of the Treasury Select Committee in the other place with regard to personnel. But the fundamental point remains that the report sought greater resources for the Office of Tax Simplification. It wanted much more consideration of the way in which the ordinary taxpayer will respond to the digital revolution and it wanted greater consultation about the development of tax law so that matters should be simpler for the ordinary taxpayer. I hope that the Minister will address those points because they are an important part of this debate so ably introduced by my noble friend Lord Hollick.

The Minister also needs to respond to points made by my noble friends Lord Darling and Lord Hain. They emphasised the extent to which it is essential for the Government to change their order of priorities and develop a strategy for growth that enables us to improve what I know the Minister is concerned about—levels of productivity. They will not increase while we are trailing at low levels of growth. It is important for the Minister to respond to the fundamental issue that for the last six years we have had a great weakness in the British economy that no amount of concentration on reduction of debt has done anything greatly to assuage. That is why the Minister needs to respond to these crucial issues raised in the debate.

Noble Lords who subsequently followed my noble friends largely regarded the issues of the Finance Bill as passé and not part of the crucial issues of the debate about our economy at the present time.

Of course, we have moved into the fog of Brexit. We are grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, who sought clarification on some of the issues, the first of which is an indication of the timescale for when certain aspects will need to be negotiated. I have seen nothing from the Government that remotely approaches anything as definitive as that. Nor have I seen any recognition on the part of the Government of the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, when he said that it is important that those who are involved in determining our negotiations with the European community should acknowledge that this is an entirely capitalist economy. It is an exercise in which they will expect to get the best deals they can for themselves as much as we will strive to do on behalf of our people. That is a tough agenda, but I have seen nothing yet to show that the Government are facing up to it, particularly when one of the key figures of Brexit, the Secretary of State Liam Fox, attacks British industry for being more interested in playing golf than improving its business record.

These are serious issues which the Government need to take hold of very rapidly indeed, yet thus far we have had nothing but evasion when challenges are presented, and indeed they have been presented today with great force in this House. We all recognise the primacy of the other place when it comes to financial issues, but occasionally we are given the chance to debate the nature of the challenges in our economy. Consideration of the Finance Bill gives us no chance to amend or challenge it because that is the responsibility of the elected House, but as I say, we have a chance to comment on the economy and to point the way forward to a more constructive position than what obtains at the moment.

What we have now is obvious. We have economic failure on the part of the Government in previous years now allied to a decision by the British people to throw a great deal of our trading position into hazard. It is important that the Government should take every opportunity to clarify how they are going to go about the Brexit process. That does not mean that they should give away their negotiating position, but they should reassure people that they understand what the approach will be and how long it will take. Thus far, we have had nothing.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Davies of Oldham

Thursday 26th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, we live in a strangely surreal world with regard to this Finance Bill. My noble friends and noble Lords on the government side will recall when they were in the other place long days and nights spent on Finance Bills, watching dawn break across the river as we struggled with the issues presented by their depth and significance. This Finance Bill went through the Commons in one day. The Budget was debated. There was a very good debate in the other place over several days. Of course, yesterday in this House we had four hours of excellent contributions to the general issue of the economy and what the Budget represented in relation to that economy. But I can scarcely for the life of me engender the same degree of intense scrutiny of this one little Bill. Even the Minister was able to dispatch it in 20 minutes or so.

In any case, this Finance Bill is a pretty mean-spirited effort. The Chancellor tried to boast and establish the fact that living standards were not lower than they had been in 2010. It is a strange thing to boast about—that there has been no growth in living standards since that time. In the area where he suggested that there had been some progress, others, such as the Resolution Foundation think tank, challenged his figures and indicated that far from there being income growth for people, incomes had fallen.

We know who has been hardest hit over these past five years—young people, in particular, and middle-aged people with low-paid jobs. There are plenty of those about. We know that there are 1.8 million zero-hours contract jobs at present. I do not know how the Government can be proud of a low-wage economy that has slumped to that level but that is what faces us. When the Minister blithely says that the Government are increasing the personal allowance, he ignores the fact that for 5 million people that is utterly and totally irrelevant as they do not earn enough to pay tax. The changes in the allowance are of absolutely no relevance to them at all. However, the more you earn, of course, the more relevant the changes become. It is typical of the Government to look after the better-off while doing very little to help the less well-off.

What does this mean-spirited little Bill mean? We had the Chancellor trying to talk about success in a land where food banks proliferate. In my old stomping ground of Oldham, rickets has emerged in recent months. Is that the society over which this Government wish to preside? Are the Government content that the pay of chief executives of FTSE companies and of some people in the public sector has increased to the extent that it has while those at the other end of the spectrum experience the difficulties that I have mentioned? We know of chief executives in local authorities who earn considerably more than the Prime Minister. We are also well aware that high salaries are paid to some officeholders whose posts were never distinguished by high earnings in the past. For example, a university vice-chancellor can earn £640,000 a year. I have great respect for British universities. They have done tremendously good work. However, one has to ask questions about the relationship between vice-chancellors and the rest of the scholastic community when their incomes almost equal those of FTSE chief executives. One also has to ask questions about the differential between vice-chancellors’ pay and the average pay of university staff. We hoped that the Government would address some of these issues. When they did address them, on the whole they rewarded the very rich with further tax cuts.

I am grateful for the fact that three of my noble friends have spoken in this debate. I note that no one from the government Back-Benches thinks that it is worth speaking in support of this Bill, although their presence may be an enthusiastic endorsement of what the Government are doing. However, it is a pretty limited endorsement. At least, three of my noble friends have sought to address the Bill. In all honesty, their talents would have been better deployed yesterday because my noble friend Lord Haskel, who spoke so eloquently about the fundamental issue of productivity, a phrase which I do not think passed the Chancellor’s lips at all—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord. If this is such a bad Bill, which parts of it would he reverse if his party were to win the next election?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

Not a great deal. I am not arguing that it is such a bad Bill but that it is such an irrelevant Bill. It contains absolutely nothing of any significance. As I said, my noble friend Lord Haskel alighted on productivity, but that was not mentioned at all in the Chancellor’s speech. However, as my noble friend clearly identified, we have to see improvement in that area if Britain is to earn its way in the world. We cannot be ignorant of our current balance of trade problems.

I listened carefully to what my noble friend Lord Desai argued. He put his case with considerable force and I hope it will get a sympathetic response from those who will lead the next Labour Government after the general election and that they will acknowledge some of the cogent points he made.

My noble friend Lord Soley is absolutely right to say that we need to concentrate on growth. However, as we established yesterday, the Government spent the first three years in office dissipating any potential for growth, and we even dropped back from the growth levels obtained by the Labour Government in their last year in office. There is, of course, growth this year, just before the general election. It is just like the Government’s public expenditure plans: there will be three years of vicious cuts—greater cuts in three years than the country has suffered in five—but there will be a certain easing back by 2018-19 in preparation for the next general election.

The Chancellor has a reputation for being political. He has certainly earned it in this tawdry little Bill.

Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Davies of Oldham

Tuesday 17th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating debate, in which two obvious problems with the Bill have been identified that might not have been entirely anticipated. They broadened the debate to such an extent that I sympathise with the Minister responding to it. The breadth that has developed is obvious enough. First, questions have been directed to points of such substantial detail that we want answers this evening because this is a money Bill and we have no chance to press the issues any further. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord—I know how scrupulous he is in observing time limits when he is winding up—will indulge himself sufficiently to respond to those very detailed points, one of which I will refer to in a moment, so that we can make as much progress as we can before we pass the Bill, defined as it is as a money Bill, by taking all its stages after Second Reading.

The second aspect that has broadened things was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. He was not alone in this respect, although he probably presented the most challenging dimension on it. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, accurately reflected this as well. They said that the Bill raises issues relating to devolution powers and the position of the United Kingdom.

I am absolutely delighted to welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on the prospects of a convention immediately after the election. He has only to vote Labour and he will help with that. Unfortunately, he is not allowed to but perhaps he can persuade the other members of his family to vote Labour to ensure that we have a convention after the election.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also identified in his very useful contribution that there are real issues at stake here. I do not doubt that the noble Lord, Lord Newby, will be somewhat reluctant to indulge in that part of the debate to a very large extent. However, it is clear that this is a further step towards devolution, which is welcomed on all sides. We heard in all speeches—and know from the deliberations in Northern Ireland, particularly in the business community—that people are in favour of this measure. Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, indicated, that might be on the basis of a fairly limited perspective on what the implications are for devolution and the position of the United Kingdom as a whole—the interaction of the parts. We heard some very challenging contributions today. It is a great pity that we are able to raise them only in the context of a Second Reading debate that concludes very shortly.

Of course, we support the Bill and will give every assistance to its progressing satisfactorily. However, we have anxieties about it. Noble Lords raised the question of the trade-off between this and the block grant. Extending wider than that, there is the whole question of devolution arrangements as well. The Barnett formula came into the debate, too. We have anxieties on those issues and the Minister must recognise that when the Bill goes through, the hoped-for increase in revenue in due course will be balanced against the block grant. I hope he will appreciate that this has considerable ramifications for the Northern Ireland public.

My noble friend Lady Blood emphasised the fact that loss of resources for government might crucially affect the amount that the Government are able to invest in, for example, training and education. These are clearly issues of great importance to making a strategy for increasing the private sector’s capacity to compete successfully. Reference was made to the days of the Republic of Ireland tiger, but it was not just the business rate taxation that was crucial to Ireland. A great deal was made of that, of course. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, reflected, certain companies hived themselves off to the Republic to take advantage of that, but other factors at play also made the Republic attractive at that time. Northern Ireland has a clearly important task to fulfil in matching up in certain respects.

That is why we are concerned about the effect of this. The Government have made it clear that there is a delaying timetable for the implementation of this measure. It is dependent on the Northern Ireland community, particularly the Assembly at Stormont, reaching an agreement that gives the Government confidence that there is fiscal security in the economy, and gives strength to that economy. Two years is a pretty short timetable to make that demand—it is a pretty substantial demand as well. The Minister must flesh out what his tests are for this demand being met before corporation tax reduction powers are vested in Northern Ireland.

None of us regards corporation tax as a panacea. It can play its part, and we are aware of the strength of opinion in the business community that it will help, but it is not a panacea for the economy; much more substantial improvements need to be made as far as the Northern Ireland economy is concerned. Therefore, the only thing I can say to the Government is that I understand their need for delay—they want to get the Bill through before this Parliament concludes and so they built in the delay before implementation—but delay is no friend in circumstances where things are not improving as rapidly as one would hope.

I hope the Minister will address these issues and at least have a shot at the broader constitutional problems.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Davies, can help me by answering the question that I put to his noble friend Lord McAvoy. I am just a bit puzzled. Of course the business community welcomes the Bill, because profitable businesses will pay less tax at the expense of the resources that are available for public services. Why is the Labour Party supporting such a measure?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, we see that there is support in Northern Ireland for the Bill, which will give some chance of rebalancing the economy to a certain extent. We are in favour of that, but recognise that the development of the Northern Ireland economy, as with all the other parts of the United Kingdom, will depend on much more fundamental issues than the rate of corporation tax. That is why we regard this as a marginal Bill in these terms. However, it would be fruitless of us to object to it, although I accept his point about why we did not address ourselves to other issues, rather than the reduction of corporation tax. He will know, because he is so well informed on Labour Party policy, that we propose to increase the corporation tax rate for the rest of the United Kingdom, with the specific objective of reducing business rates for small and medium-sized businesses. We think that is a quicker and more effective way of giving stimulus to the business community. There we are: on two areas of policy, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and I are in full agreement. I did not expect to say that this evening.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

If it is the policy of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that it is better to reduce business rates and that that should be applied to the rest of the United Kingdom, why is it not his policy to do that in Northern Ireland? If he believes that that is the right approach, why is he proposing something that he rejects as being the right approach in the rest of the United Kingdom?

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, has the noble Lord not noticed that I am speaking from the opposition Benches? We are not in a position where we can implement our policies at present. It is only a matter of a short delay, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, will readily appreciate. But at this stage, the Government put Bills before us and this is the Bill we have. I have only two alternatives: to reject the Bill whatever its benefits, or to accept it but state that we can do better. That is exactly what I have argued.