Meat: Ritual Slaughter and Religious Freedom

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 28th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The first point I make to the noble Baroness, which I made in my Answer, is that prior to the judgment it was already not possible to buy organic halal or kosher meat from un-stunned animals. That was the practice from January. On her general point about religious freedoms, in this country we have some of the best protections in the world with the Equality Act and the convention on human rights. It is something of which we can be justly proud.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I draw the noble Baroness’s attention to yesterday’s Hansard, where the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is reported as saying that,

“if the Prime Minister’s deal goes through … rulings of the European Court of Justice will be directly applicable in this country … So we had better get used to it”.—[Official Report, 27/3/19; col. 1854.]

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend has already drawn the noble Baroness’s attention to that point. As I have said, this was the pre-existing practice in this country anyway, and there is no proposal to change the law in this regard.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords who have participated in this very wide-ranging debate, particularly to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for moving his amendment and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, for moving her amendment to the amendment. I shall first try to deal with a couple of very basic points before turning to the substance of the debate and I shall then try to pick up some of the points made by noble Lords. I gently say to the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, that if my aim was to cut short this debate, I failed fairly spectacularly. I regret that. I had sought to clarify where we were—but I will go through the basic principles again.

I shall deal with a couple of very basic points. First, I do not know where the idea came from that there is some possibility of the Government fundamentally amending or repealing the Government of Wales Act without consent. That is not remotely on our agenda. It is certainly not something that I would tolerate. I suppose it is just about within the scope of Austinian sovereignty, but I do not know where the idea came from that that is a possibility—so let me put that to bed absolutely right away. We are totally committed to devolution—the Government of Wales Act, the Scotland Act and the Northern Ireland Act—and I think that noble Lords will appreciate that point.

Secondly, I think that there has been some confusion. We are not principally dealing with Clause 11 today. There might be some confusion because we have just published the amendments in relation to Clause 11, following an undertaking we gave in another place—but that will be the subject of much broader discussion later. No doubt we will go through that in some substance, so I do not intend to deal with it and pre-empt what is going to happen later in our consideration of the Bill.

I thank noble Lords for this valuable debate. We will consider the main clauses relating to devolution in coming days, but the question of how the powers conferred by the Bill interact with our devolution settlements and the responsibilities of our devolved institutions is no less important and deserves no less robust scrutiny. I shall first speak to the protection for the devolution statutes in relation to the Clause 7(1) correcting power and by extension its Schedule 2 counterpart. There are many amendments in Schedule 3 for those who want some idea of what will be brought forward on Report. It is not a question of them coming forward now. My noble friend Lady McIntosh raised this, but we are not in a position to come up with all the amendments that may be necessary. They will be debated on Report. We are talking about every correction that is necessary being brought forward on Report for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. It is as simple as that. I hope that clarifies what I hoped to clarify right at the start.

I must start by emphasising that the Government recognise the importance of our devolution settlements and the Acts through which they have effect. I think noble Lords who know my history will know that that is my starting point. That is why we have sought to make as many corrections to the Acts as possible in the Bill already. Those, as I say, can be found in Part 2 of Schedule 3. We want to be open and transparent in demonstrating that these are, as noble Lords will discover when they look at them, simply technical fixes to remedy deficiencies created by leaving the EU. For instance, much like in other pieces of legislation, we must remove or replace redundant references to member states or EU institutions.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, is absolutely right to raise the unique importance of the Northern Ireland Act as the statutory manifestation of the Belfast agreement. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Adonis—I hope the record will show this—I do not think I said that we were bringing forward amendments in relation to the Good Friday agreement on Report. What we are doing is bringing forward some amendments in relation to Northern Ireland to make sure that all the amendments that relate to Northern Ireland are in the Bill. I cannot stress often enough or strongly enough our total, steadfast commitment to the Belfast agreement. That is precisely why we have, in this Bill, already generally restricted the correcting power from making corrections to the Northern Ireland Act. As I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, is aware, references to Northern Ireland amendments are minimal, and we will seek to make sure that all of those are on the face of the Bill when it comes back on Report.

Noble Lords must recognise that there remain outstanding corrections to the Acts that must be made in order to ensure that they function properly on exit day. Corrections to the Scotland Act and the Government of Wales Act are being discussed with the Scottish and Welsh Governments, and progress is being made. It is a mistake to think that people are at daggers drawn. This is not how things are operating, as many noble Lords are well aware. Day to day, negotiations go on very constructively and effectively—that is what is happening. We have not made all of the corrections on the face of the Bill so far, as we must rightly agree the forms of the corrections to those Acts with the Scottish and Welsh Governments. Indeed, some fall within devolved competence to address. In some cases, alternative mechanisms may exist to deal with them.

I can provide further reassurance, because these are not matters of substantive policy. This is about correcting provisions that will not function correctly once we have left the EU. For example, there is provision in the Government of Wales Act requiring the Auditor-General for Wales to make certain arrangements for bodies established by the European Union. This will need to be updated so that the provision continues to work in a post-exit world. There is one correction that must be made to the Northern Ireland Act, as I have referred to, which relates to technical standards—the quality of goods and safety marks. This, again, is fairly routine and will be brought forward on Report.

It would be irresponsible for us to place these limits on the correcting power if we could not also provide the answers to the questions—which I am now providing —and the assurance that we will deal with these issues on Report. I can confirm that we will bring forward amendments on Report to apply the same protection for the Scotland Act and the Government of Wales Act as for the Northern Ireland Act, so that all the necessary amendments will appear on the face of the Bill on Report. Contrary to what some noble Lords seem to think, we have made substantial progress in discussions, but we were not in a position to remedy the remaining deficiencies for consideration in Committee. I regret that, but I am very pleased that we have made the progress we have.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I do not know whether my noble friend reads the Scottish papers. If he does, he will have seen that there has been headline after headline about the Scottish Government claiming that this is a great power grab by Westminster—attacking the Government and attacking the whole concept of leaving the European Union with scare stories about the impact of it. I am a little puzzled that he can say that there is a gentlemanly discussion going on when that is the perception north of the border.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I do not recognise the power-grab allegation as being anywhere near reality. We are making progress. Of course there are differences, but I think in fairness all parties concerned have indicated, as the noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, did, that progress is being made. These are complex issues and it is a great mistake to see this, in some Animal Farm way as all black and white. It is not like that. Progress is being made. There is still territory to cover and progress to be made, but we are making that progress.

Thirlmere Reservoir

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 25th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Does my noble friend think that the protests from the Liberal Benches would be more realistic if they did not also take the view that our national parks should be covered in pylons and wind farms?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I do not wish to enter into a dispute between my noble friend and the Benches opposite. I recognise that on occasion there is a question of consistency from the Liberal Democrat Benches. I can see that smiles are coming even from those Benches, so perhaps they recognise the validity of the comment.

Brexit: Affordable Housing

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 21st December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to highlight the importance to the construction sector of workers from the EU; they constitute about 18% across the country, although obviously it is higher than that in some parts of the country and certainly in London. The Government are of course very much aware of this and it is part of our negotiations. The noble Lord will be aware that we have made a fair and serious offer to protect the rights and entitlements of EU nationals, which is all part of making sure that we extend a welcome to those people who are part of the fabric of our life and who are very important to our economy.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest, as on the register, as chairman of a bank. Does my noble friend agree that the decision by the European Banking Authority to increase the cost of capital for banks that lend to small and medium-sized builders from 100% to 150% has added hugely to the cost of building houses, and that, once we have left the European Union, the Bank of England will be free to set rules that reflect the interests of our economy and the policy of Her Majesty's Government to encourage more housebuilding?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is, of course, right about the adverse effect that the decision to raise those interest rates will have on the construction sector in the United Kingdom and elsewhere, and he is right to say that the Bank of England will have increased freedom once we leave the EU. However, of course, banks have to compete in an international environment as well.

Housing: Offsite Manufactured Housing

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 20th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

First, the noble Lord is absolutely right about the need for people from overseas to help with the construction side; that is a point identified by the Government which is being taken up and acted on. In relation to investment opportunities, as I have mentioned already, there is considerable growth in the economy in this area. We have Laing O’Rourke, L&G and Swan producing modular housing in the country at the moment, in Worksop, Leeds and Basildon respectively. In Chatham, we have homes already being built with that type of investment, and over seven sites in London are taking this up. It is right to say there is great potential here, and we intend to ensure that it is used.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, might not the Government tackle the oligopoly that exists among the big housebuilders, which results in land for which there is planning permission not being built on? Also, might we expect the Government to respond to the recommendation from the Economic Affairs Committee that we end the absurdity whereby local authorities can borrow to build swimming pools but not council houses?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely correct about the issue of land banking, although he did not call it that; it is certainly something identified in the White Paper. Borrowing is there already. I do not want to pre-empt the Budget, as I do not know what will be in it myself, but obviously it is an issue that will be looked at by the Government.

Housing

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 14th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I acknowledge the work done by the National Audit Office and obviously we will consider its report seriously. The noble Lord is right that we need to ensure that money is spent on housing rather on dealing with homelessness. In short, prevention is better than cure. We are aware of that and take it seriously. However, as he will know, we are committed to 1 million new homes by 2020 and another 500,000 in the two years after that. That is a considerable increase on what we have achieved as a country over the last 10, 15, even 20 years. There is much still to do but we are getting there.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, has my noble friend given further thought to the recommendations of the Economic Affairs Committee in its housing report? One of the largest costs of housing is the cost of land, so it was suggested that local authorities, health authorities and other public bodies which have land available for housing be given the incentive to sell it by being allowed to keep the proceeds of the sale. Further, what action will the Government take on the oligopoly which the large housing builders represent? They are deliberately withholding land to maintain the price of housing.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is right about the importance of the release of public land. As he will know, we have increased the funding on that as a result of the White Paper, and action was taken just last month. Yes, we need to look further at the release of public land. I keep trailing what is going to be in the Statement this afternoon. I will not go into the detail, but again it has provisions for dealing with the cost of land. I agree with him about land banking, which as he will recall was covered in the White Paper. We will respond on that in due course.

Business Rates Hardship Fund

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises a variety of issues. The issue about software relates to just the small business rate relief; it would not apply to the discretionary relief so is not an issue there. My honourable friend the Minister, Marcus Jones, contacted software providers yesterday to indicate that we expect them to ensure that bills are reissued by 21 August. In relation to points made earlier about a further month, I think that is fair. On the issue about the system in relation to the other relief package, clearly it is important that that money is passed on. We seek to ensure that that is done. I will write to her about flexibility, but that seems a fair point within the package. At the moment, the important point is that local authorities have the allocations and they should pass on that money.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the discretionary relief scheme is just that: it is discretionary for local authorities to come up with their own criteria. We want them to be innovative. I have great personal sympathy with the point that the noble Baroness made. I am a great user of independent bookshops. One can think of many areas where bookshops are vital to a town, but that is something for the local authority to respond to. They can do that by being creative within their own scheme.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, as the Clock seems to have stopped, I will ask this. While welcoming the relief on business rates, could my noble friend recognise that companies such as Amazon use the high street as a shop window? They themselves pay no or limited tax. Do we not need to look radically at some sort of tax on internet sales so those on the high street can compete fairly?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

As always, my noble friend makes a valid point. I also noticed that the Clock seems to have stopped. That is often the case when I am answering Questions. In relation to his valid point, I restate that we will look during the course of this Parliament at possible reforms to the business rate system.

Oil and Gas: UK Continental Shelf

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 9th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is it not quite obvious by now that Scotland and the oil industry have benefited enormously from having the strength of the United Kingdom around them? Had the Scottish people voted for independence, they would not have been able to benefit from the wider resources of the United Kingdom and the Prime Minister’s welcome involvement in supporting the oil industry in the north-east of Scotland.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right about the strength of the United Kingdom and the resilience that it has afforded to the oil industry over a period of time. Long may that resilience continue.

Energy: Onshore Wind

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 22nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, first of all, the noble Viscount makes the same point about this being a response to Back-Bench opinion. This is actually in response to the country’s opinion, as reflected in the Conservative manifesto, which was voted upon at the general election.

The noble Viscount is right about the current cost of offshore wind being more expensive than onshore, although I notice that that difference in cost has sometimes been exaggerated. The cost of offshore wind is falling. Certainly, it is important we realise that, for some of these new technologies, the costs will fall further. Therefore, I am bound to say that this is the reason we have made this decision. It is important that we balance the interests of the bill payer and the interests of new technologies against the fact that onshore wind has been highly successful and will continue to be so. These contracts are on a 20-year basis, so it is not as though wind farms and the contribution that they make will suddenly disappear.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on this announcement. To the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, who suggested that he did not understand what was happening in the rest of the United Kingdom, I gently point out that her party was reduced to one seat.

My noble friend said that Scotland had benefited from this onshore wind subsidy, but I have seen the industrialisation of the countryside in Scotland take place, in a country that is absolutely dependent on tourism. That is not just because of the windmills but because of the huge electricity pylons that are required to convey this electricity across the country. This Statement will be very much welcomed.

The other thing that I would like to point out to my noble friend is that, in removing this subsidy, he is ending what has been the biggest transfer of wealth from the poorest in Scotland to the richest in Scotland because of the fact that these subsidies, which are being paid to large landowners, are reflected in the bills of the people who have to meet the cost and are undisclosed. Therefore, I believe that this is a great step forward.

I urge my noble friend to look at the next racket, which is biomass, where people are being paid huge subsidies and given large interest-free loans, again at the expense of ordinary people who cannot afford these capital investments and who have to pay the bills. I hope that this is the first step in a process that sees people in Scotland and in the United Kingdom being treated fairly in this issue of renewables.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that contribution. It is right to say, as he has done, that opinion in Scotland certainly is not all one way and there are split views on the usefulness and so on of onshore wind.

In relation to his more general comment about renewables, the Government are committed to making sure that we have a balance of interests between affordability, security and clean energy. That remains the case. Renewables are very important going forward to ensure that we meet those three aims, as a department and a government.