Pensions Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I say to my noble friend that the noble Baroness makes a devastating case in favour of those people who take advantage of flexible labour markets. All my political life we have been trying to create more flexibility in the labour market and more opportunities for women. As at an earlier stage, the noble Baroness, with her characteristic incisive, forensic approach and her considerable knowledge of social security and other matters, this afternoon has made an overwhelming case. It all goes to show that the Whips’ advice of never listen to the arguments before you vote is well founded for those people who only want to win the votes.

The noble Baroness has won the argument on this and so I have a question for my noble friend. He is going to carry out a survey: what are the criteria by which he will decide what to do on the basis of that survey? Is this a numbers game? Does it depend on a certain number of people being affected by it? If it does, what is the number? To my mind, if it is one, that is one too many. The Prime Minister constantly talks about supporting strivers and people who do the right thing. In my book, someone who does not sit on benefit but goes out and does the kind of jobs to which the noble Baroness has referred has exactly that character. Such people have considerable difficulty in doing the right thing and yet find themselves penalised when they are at their most vulnerable in old age.

I understand the Government’s position. My noble friend said that the amendments were unnecessary because the Government already have the power to deal with this matter. I have two questions for him: first, what will the criteria be by which they decide whether to do something; and, secondly, what is the timetable for this? Can we have a commitment from my noble friend? If as a result of the survey the noble Baroness is proved right and it is 250,000, is that not a quarter of a million too many? If it is 10,000, is that not too many? What are the criteria?

What is the timescale? My noble friend will carry out his survey and we will have the results by the summer. Can we have an assurance that if he finds there is a problem he will do something this side of Christmas and that he will not use it as a delaying tactic? Certainly when I used to stand at the Dispatch Box there were certain techniques that one could apply when one had run out of arguments and could no longer win the debate. One was to set up a commission and the other was to commission a survey and hope that by the time the survey had been reported the matter would have gone away. One thing we can be sure of is that the noble Baroness will not go away.

[Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the two previous speakers, particularly my noble friend Lady Hollis. This issue was well aired in Committee and at later stages. At the moment it predominantly affects women. I welcome the Minister’s statement, but I am aware that we are not too far away from a general election and that things may change. The work that is to be carried out will obviously be done only after this Bill becomes an Act of Parliament, so what specific assurances can the Minister give to disabuse me of the notion that in reality this is being kicked into the long grass because it is rather inconvenient?