Meat: Ritual Slaughter and Religious Freedom

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 28th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The first point I make to the noble Baroness, which I made in my Answer, is that prior to the judgment it was already not possible to buy organic halal or kosher meat from un-stunned animals. That was the practice from January. On her general point about religious freedoms, in this country we have some of the best protections in the world with the Equality Act and the convention on human rights. It is something of which we can be justly proud.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I draw the noble Baroness’s attention to yesterday’s Hansard, where the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is reported as saying that,

“if the Prime Minister’s deal goes through … rulings of the European Court of Justice will be directly applicable in this country … So we had better get used to it”.—[Official Report, 27/3/19; col. 1854.]

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend has already drawn the noble Baroness’s attention to that point. As I have said, this was the pre-existing practice in this country anyway, and there is no proposal to change the law in this regard.

Thirlmere Reservoir

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 25th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Does my noble friend think that the protests from the Liberal Benches would be more realistic if they did not also take the view that our national parks should be covered in pylons and wind farms?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I do not wish to enter into a dispute between my noble friend and the Benches opposite. I recognise that on occasion there is a question of consistency from the Liberal Democrat Benches. I can see that smiles are coming even from those Benches, so perhaps they recognise the validity of the comment.

Brexit: Affordable Housing

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 21st December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right to highlight the importance to the construction sector of workers from the EU; they constitute about 18% across the country, although obviously it is higher than that in some parts of the country and certainly in London. The Government are of course very much aware of this and it is part of our negotiations. The noble Lord will be aware that we have made a fair and serious offer to protect the rights and entitlements of EU nationals, which is all part of making sure that we extend a welcome to those people who are part of the fabric of our life and who are very important to our economy.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest, as on the register, as chairman of a bank. Does my noble friend agree that the decision by the European Banking Authority to increase the cost of capital for banks that lend to small and medium-sized builders from 100% to 150% has added hugely to the cost of building houses, and that, once we have left the European Union, the Bank of England will be free to set rules that reflect the interests of our economy and the policy of Her Majesty's Government to encourage more housebuilding?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is, of course, right about the adverse effect that the decision to raise those interest rates will have on the construction sector in the United Kingdom and elsewhere, and he is right to say that the Bank of England will have increased freedom once we leave the EU. However, of course, banks have to compete in an international environment as well.

Housing: Offsite Manufactured Housing

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 20th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

First, the noble Lord is absolutely right about the need for people from overseas to help with the construction side; that is a point identified by the Government which is being taken up and acted on. In relation to investment opportunities, as I have mentioned already, there is considerable growth in the economy in this area. We have Laing O’Rourke, L&G and Swan producing modular housing in the country at the moment, in Worksop, Leeds and Basildon respectively. In Chatham, we have homes already being built with that type of investment, and over seven sites in London are taking this up. It is right to say there is great potential here, and we intend to ensure that it is used.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, might not the Government tackle the oligopoly that exists among the big housebuilders, which results in land for which there is planning permission not being built on? Also, might we expect the Government to respond to the recommendation from the Economic Affairs Committee that we end the absurdity whereby local authorities can borrow to build swimming pools but not council houses?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely correct about the issue of land banking, although he did not call it that; it is certainly something identified in the White Paper. Borrowing is there already. I do not want to pre-empt the Budget, as I do not know what will be in it myself, but obviously it is an issue that will be looked at by the Government.

Oil and Gas: UK Continental Shelf

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 9th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is it not quite obvious by now that Scotland and the oil industry have benefited enormously from having the strength of the United Kingdom around them? Had the Scottish people voted for independence, they would not have been able to benefit from the wider resources of the United Kingdom and the Prime Minister’s welcome involvement in supporting the oil industry in the north-east of Scotland.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right about the strength of the United Kingdom and the resilience that it has afforded to the oil industry over a period of time. Long may that resilience continue.

Energy: Onshore Wind

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 22nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, first of all, the noble Viscount makes the same point about this being a response to Back-Bench opinion. This is actually in response to the country’s opinion, as reflected in the Conservative manifesto, which was voted upon at the general election.

The noble Viscount is right about the current cost of offshore wind being more expensive than onshore, although I notice that that difference in cost has sometimes been exaggerated. The cost of offshore wind is falling. Certainly, it is important we realise that, for some of these new technologies, the costs will fall further. Therefore, I am bound to say that this is the reason we have made this decision. It is important that we balance the interests of the bill payer and the interests of new technologies against the fact that onshore wind has been highly successful and will continue to be so. These contracts are on a 20-year basis, so it is not as though wind farms and the contribution that they make will suddenly disappear.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on this announcement. To the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, who suggested that he did not understand what was happening in the rest of the United Kingdom, I gently point out that her party was reduced to one seat.

My noble friend said that Scotland had benefited from this onshore wind subsidy, but I have seen the industrialisation of the countryside in Scotland take place, in a country that is absolutely dependent on tourism. That is not just because of the windmills but because of the huge electricity pylons that are required to convey this electricity across the country. This Statement will be very much welcomed.

The other thing that I would like to point out to my noble friend is that, in removing this subsidy, he is ending what has been the biggest transfer of wealth from the poorest in Scotland to the richest in Scotland because of the fact that these subsidies, which are being paid to large landowners, are reflected in the bills of the people who have to meet the cost and are undisclosed. Therefore, I believe that this is a great step forward.

I urge my noble friend to look at the next racket, which is biomass, where people are being paid huge subsidies and given large interest-free loans, again at the expense of ordinary people who cannot afford these capital investments and who have to pay the bills. I hope that this is the first step in a process that sees people in Scotland and in the United Kingdom being treated fairly in this issue of renewables.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that contribution. It is right to say, as he has done, that opinion in Scotland certainly is not all one way and there are split views on the usefulness and so on of onshore wind.

In relation to his more general comment about renewables, the Government are committed to making sure that we have a balance of interests between affordability, security and clean energy. That remains the case. Renewables are very important going forward to ensure that we meet those three aims, as a department and a government.

Stormont House Agreement

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 7th January 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord points out the complexities of dealing with the range of issues that this agreement covers. The number of bodies being set up is significant. They fulfil a whole range of functions. It is intended that one of them should be established as an international body. It is intended that some of them operate completely independently of political representatives. Others do not, but there is always that balance when there is elected political representation.

It is important to bear in mind that the agreement makes provision for an implementation and reconciliation group to oversee the bodies and the work being done on the past. It is important to bear in mind also that the British and Irish Governments and the Northern Ireland Executive are committed to regular, six-monthly monitoring meetings to ensure that things are proceeding in the fair, balanced and transparent manner that I mentioned.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

While understanding the particular circumstances in Northern Ireland, does not my noble friend think that there is a danger in this piecemeal constitutional reform? For example, what are we to say as unionists to the nationalists in Scotland who are demanding corporation tax powers on the grounds that it will help their economy when my noble friend is justifying corporation tax in Northern Ireland being set on precisely the same basis? Should we not be careful in moving forward with devolution that we do so on a basis that is balanced and clearly thought through? Is not my noble friend’s answer that she is not yet able to tell us what the effect on the block grant would be deeply worrying in the context of further devolution of tax powers?

Wales Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tyler]

My noble friend is the personification of constitutional rectitude, so I will not be surprised if he finds my argument absolutely conclusive, that having extended the franchise to this particular group in one part of our United Kingdom, we should look at the relevance of that to other parts. That brings us to the heart of the matter: it is surely unthinkable that this hugely successful precedent could or should be simply overturned. I ask my noble friend to think about this: if my brother, long-since resident in Wales, had a grand- daughter aged 16, and there was a similar referendum vote there, which Member of your Lordships’ House—including my noble friend—would deny her the franchise? Which noble Lords would dare to suggest that Welsh young people are less mature, less well informed or less rational than their Scottish counterparts?

Anyone who still doubts that we have moved on—that the dam has broken—should read the excellent Youth Select Committee report, published last week, entitled, Lowering the Voting Age to 16. With remorseless logic, the committee examined all the familiar arguments and then arrived at this clear conclusion:

“We recommend that the Government introduce legislation to set the age at which people become eligible to vote in all elections at 16”.

As the Select Committee makes abundantly clear, we are no longer discussing theories. Any of my Conservative friends who retain misgivings must now accept the facts: the time to resist on principle has passed. The precedent is unanswerable.

My two amendments deliberately distinguish between elections to the Welsh Assembly, on the one hand, and any future significant referendum in Wales on the other. The latter, of course, is even more relevant after the Scottish experience than the former.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My noble friend is making a very strong argument in principle for 16 year-olds benefiting from the franchise, but why not extend that to allowing them to stand for election? Why not extend it to the general election? Where is the principle here that he is applying?

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I do not know if my noble friend heard some of the discussion earlier about the piecemeal way in which we are attacking these problems. It would just be inappropriate—as he will know, as a very distinguished parliamentarian—for me to try to insert this into this particular Bill, so I am not trying to do so.

Since Committee, the Minister and her officials have responded most helpfully and with continuous attention to the points I raised then. She has been fully committed to the positive answers that she gave to me and the rest of your Lordships’ House, and I am enormously grateful to her. I note that in Amendment 2, noble Lords opposite have taken up a suggestion I made in Committee, that the referendum issue should be treated on a similar basis as that in Scotland. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. There is clearly a strong case for the decision to be taken in the Assembly, but we believe that a strong steer from this Parliament is appropriate on something as crucial as the franchise.

Here I would like to refer to the similar exercise that took place before the Scottish referendum. In the Edinburgh agreement, in paragraph 10, there was this statement:

“The Scottish Government’s consultation on the referendum also set out a proposal for extending the franchise to allow 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in the referendum. It will be for the Scottish Government to decide whether to propose extending the franchise for this referendum and how that should be done. It will be for the Scottish Parliament to approve the referendum franchise, as it would be for any referendum on devolved matters”.

That was not the end of the matter, and I would be grateful if the Minister would consider this point, because there was then a vote on the Scottish Independence Referendum (Franchise) Bill in the Scottish Parliament on 27 June. There was a vote, and the Deputy Presiding Officer told the Parliament that the result of the Division was: 103 for; 12 against; abstentions, nought. I think we should record abstentions in this House, because abstentions would usually outnumber those attending, but that is a different matter for a different occasion. The reason for mentioning that is, of course, that that was a simple majority in the Scottish Parliament, and I would like the Minister to give some consideration to that in her response to this group of amendments.

The main point, which I hope the Minister will now accept, is that the case in principle is unanswerable. I hope that she therefore will be able to give us a very positive response to these amendments today. I hope that, if we are not able to conclude the matter today, we can do so before the Bill leaves your Lordships’ House.

It would be surely be constitutionally improper, in what has now been reinforced as a United Kingdom, to differentiate between the basic civic rights and duties of citizens here, simply on the basis of their area of residence. If, as I believe, the franchise is the foundation stone of our representative democracy, then discrimination on that basis must surely be totally unacceptable.

As a footnote, on 11 November 2014, we can recall that young men and women gave their all in two world wars to secure true representative democracy. This is just one more step to advance that cause and prevent unfair discrimination between our fellow citizens.

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[The Earl of Listowel (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for his kind comments about me. May I return the compliment by saying that the families, particularly, and also the campaigners, including myself, were most grateful to the Government, the Home Secretary and the Minister for moving more swiftly than we had expected yesterday and bringing about that change, which will protect children—17 year-olds—in future far better than they are protected now. We are all very grateful to the Government for what they did yesterday.

I would like to raise some concerns in this debate, but first may I apologise for arriving so late to the debates on this Bill? I should manage my time better, and I apologise for entering the discussion at this late stage. Perhaps I may be slightly forgiven because it is a Welsh Bill, and perhaps I may have thought that, because I am not Welsh, I might not—I am digging a hole for myself, so I shall stop there.

There is much to be welcomed in the proposition made by those who have tabled these amendments, in relation to hearing the voice of young people. However, I am concerned that they betray a certain difficulty in the English-speaking world in terms of understanding child development. If one looks to those who treat people best, one might look to Italy, France or Spain for the way that they care for families and children. I should be interested to learn how far discussions there have gone in this direction.

Let me stress the good things about the proposal. It is so important to hear the voice of young people. Visiting schools, I heard young people talking about the withdrawal of the education maintenance allowance. Many young people felt passionately about that, and the proposal would give them an opportunity to vote on the matter. One could talk about school uniforms and concern about their cost and other issues for young people that they could push harder if they had the vote. Giving young people more responsibility is a well recognised way to help them to develop in maturity. In the care system, for foster children and children in children’s homes, it has been recognised how powerful it has been as a tool to improve outcomes to allow young people’s voices to be heard, particularly by those who make the decisions about allocation of resources—putting those people in the same room.

The principle is much to be welcomed, but—I know that this has been raised before—I am particularly concerned about a misunderstanding of child development and of human development. For instance, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, is shortly to have a debate about children, the internet and social networking. I hesitate to presume what she may say, but I think she will say that we have been unkind to children. We have not given them any guidance; we have released this technology on them and expected them to deal with it. We have treated them just as if they were little adults, and we need to do better and give them better guidance.

There are welcome improvements in the criminal justice system, particularly in what the coalition Government have done to remove so many young people from custody, but in general, we are still far harsher to children who misbehave but are also troubled than they would be in France, Germany and other continental countries. As in America, the English-speaking world has difficulties in this area. The age of criminal responsibility in this country is 10; on the continent, the average is probably between 12 and 14.

What is the issue about the rate of human development? There is probably a biologist who may help me here, but the distinguishing feature of humanity is that we allow our children so long to grow up. Most animals have to face a hostile world from a very early stage in their lives. They may have to leave the womb and be walking within minutes. It may be one reason why humanity is so sophisticated that we allow our newborns, our children, our young people, to grow up and mature over a considerable length of time. In Denmark, for instance, children do not start primary school until the age of seven. The Danes feel that it is right to allow young people to enjoy their infancy and young childhood for longer.

First, I am concerned about people arguing for us to be harsher on children and using the fact that the voting age moves to 16 as a means to say that we can punish young people and keep the age of criminal responsibility at 10. I know that young people can marry at the age of 16, so it can be argued the other way.

I am taking too long, but let me give your Lordships one more example: the Rochdale sexual abuse of children. The Times reported last week or the week before that the police were saying, “The girl knew what she was doing; she wanted to be in that relationship”, about a 13 year-old. That highlights confusion within the police, but perhaps more generally—a difficulty about judging when a child or young person can make the right decisions for their age. I am concerned about the general principle of reducing the age and allowing young people to vote at 16. I fear that that reflects a general misapprehension. We do our children wrong when we ask them to act as adults too soon.

At the end of the 1960s, the renowned child psychotherapist, Donald Winnicott, wrote a book the final chapter of which dealt with the revolution in the 1960s. He said that it is right that children and young people should revolt. Teenagers should be kicking against adults and against the system. That is absolutely right; if they do not do that, they will not mature properly and become proper individuals as adults. But it is adults’ duty to stand against that, to set boundaries for children and young people. As difficult as that is—in particular, not to be overly punitive, not, because children challenge them again and again, to start locking them up or physically beating them—we must find ways to contain them.

As I said, I worry that this move reflects a misunderstanding on our part of the need to allow young people to grow up gradually over time. I cannot support the amendments. Again, I apologise for coming to this debate so late.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, if I had had the vote at 16, I would have voted Labour, but I grew out of it. I grew up and I grew out of it. The experience of the Scottish referendum was remarkable. I guess that those on my Front Bench probably want me to make a short speech. If I was to make a short speech, I would say: “I told you so”.

When we agreed that the Scottish Parliament could decide the franchise for the referendum, we gave up the argument. It became impossible to resist the argument for referenda in other devolved areas. We did that, I believe, without giving the matter proper consideration. We have not at any stage had a debate on the franchise. I asked my noble friend Lord Tyler whether he would extend it to general elections and candidates, and he gave me a politician’s answer. He did not answer the point; he said that it is not relevant to the Bill; but it is, it seems to me. If we are to give 16 year-olds the vote, why should we not allow them to stand as candidates for the bodies for which they have the vote as councillors or Members of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly or the Northern Ireland Assembly? Why should we limit that?

Other issues arise. Why do you have the right in Scotland to decide to break up the United Kingdom but not the right to buy a packet of cigarettes? We need to have a considered debate about what rights should apply to 16 year-olds. My noble friends Lord Crickhowell and Lord Cormack emphasised earlier today that you cannot proceed with constitutional reform on a piecemeal basis; it must be looked at in the round.

I am becoming desperately alarmed at the way in which the political parties are now engaged in a competition to use constitutional reform to get votes. That is disastrous. I was brought up in a tradition where constitutional reform was something which you did not do unless you had consensus, unless you could show precedent and unless you had taken a considerable time to consider the implications and unintended consequences, which always follow from constitutional reform. I am very much in the camp of the Labour Party in wanting a constitutional convention, a royal commission, or something to look at all the issues in the round, recognise how far we have gone so far and do something about it.

We are engaged in highly dangerous stuff. If you do not believe that, look at the opinion polls in Scotland today. We have just won a referendum. We won the argument decisively. What has happened? The unionist parties have seen their support slump. According to the opinion polls, Labour is looking at having only four seats in Scotland. The Tories have our lowest ever recorded share of the vote—that is saying something—at 8% to 10%, and the nationalists are romping ahead. Why? Because of that last-minute promise made of extra powers, not defined, and the consequences that have followed from that. We are in grave danger of dismantling our British constitution like some fine clock, taking out the wheels and finding that we no longer know the time of day.

[Lord Tyler]

Perhaps I may take my noble friend back from his party-political forays to the issue of principle, with which I have sympathy. He said that two things were essential: consensus and precedent. Does he accept that there was consensus? The Prime Minister led the consensus that the Scottish Parliament should be permitted to include the franchise for 16 and 17 year-olds. He may not agree, but there was one between the parties. Secondly, the noble Lord must accept that there is now a precedent. Young people in Scotland have exercised the vote in a referendum. We know that the commission—or conventions or whatever it may be—that will look at the constitution in the round will take some time. In that intervening period, does he not recognise that for young people of comparable age in Wales, in a comparable referendum, the precedent is established?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

No, I do not accept that there was a consensus—a consensus between whom? The last-minute promise made in the referendum to which I just referred was dreamed up by three party leaders and the editor of the Daily Record. Not even the leaders of the parties in Scotland were consulted about it. That is why the Labour leader in Scotland resigned—because she had not been consulted. That is not a consensus. That is a kind of dictatorship. That is people deciding, for political effect, to make changes that have not been properly discussed and considered by everyone—not just the party leaders or people in Westminster, but people in local government, in civic society and people not engaged in politics at all. These are important matters that are central to how we govern our country and the extent to which we carry the support and consensus of the people. That is what I am complaining about. I am complaining about people making changes to our constitution because they see some short-term political advantage, which is brought forward on a piecemeal basis without considering the consequences.

The second part of this intervention asked whether I accept that the precedent had been created by giving 16 year-olds the vote in Scotland in the referendum. Of course I do. By the way, that is why I spent hours boring this House by arguing that they should not do that. I argued that the Prime Minister should not have allowed Alex Salmond to decide the franchise unilaterally, because it had implications for the rest of the United Kingdom and its constituent parts. In the same way, it is irresponsible, frankly, to have as we have at the moment, the noble Lord, Lord Smith, sitting with the party leaders to find some deal that they think they can sell to Scotland without considering what the consequences are for the rest of the United Kingdom and without involving the United Kingdom in that process. They should be doing it in a considered and timely way, and not doing it in the heated months and weeks before a general election when the parties are competing for votes. It is not the proper way in which to go about our constitutional reform.

So, although I accept my noble friend’s point that having given 16 year-olds the vote in the referendum in Scotland it is impossible to resist it in Wales, I am simply saying that, if we are to save our United Kingdom, we should look at the issue of the franchise across the piece, but in the context of what we are going to do having embarked on this process of devolution without thinking through the long-term consequences. This is serious stuff and I hope that my noble friend will resist this amendment but accept some of the points that have been made. Change is necessary, but it is change that has to be agreed across the United Kingdom in a considered manner through some kind of Speaker’s Conference, constitutional conference or royal commission. Call it what you will but it must be something that will put a brake on this and get us to look at the thing in the round.

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth (CB)]

I fully support the noble Lord’s desire and call for a royal commission but royal commissions do not always achieve what they set out to achieve. I was fortunate enough to be a member of the royal commission on the House of Lords, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham. We came into that commission with totally divided views and we ended it unanimously in favour of a particular scheme, which we all know has not been settled and we have had virtually no reform since then. The fact of the matter is, I am afraid—we have only to look at the reform of the House of Lords in particular—that, historically, changes in this country take place incrementally due to particular pressures at the time. That is the particular genius of our political system, whether we like it or not. I fully support the royal commission; we should have one, but should not think that it will necessarily solve anything, even if people are agreed on it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I entirely accept that. Incidentally, I thought that the report that was produced by the royal commission had a great deal of merit in it, but it failed because it did not carry a consensus down the Corridor. Members of the House of Commons realised that they would be threatened by the changes that were proposed in this House. I am not suggesting for a moment that a royal commission, a constitutional convention or whatever body we set up will come up with the answers. I am suggesting that we should make sure that we consider these matters in the round, so that all the arguments are understood. Then it is for Parliament to decide. Parliament should not be deciding these matters in a kind of cheese-paring way without looking at the knock-on consequences—sorry, if I am mixing my metaphors.

I was assured from the Front Bench that giving the Scottish Parliament the right to decide the franchise for the referendum would not be a precedent and would not result in pressure for change elsewhere. That assurance has not lasted six months. I entirely agree with the noble Lord that the best way is to proceed incrementally. In doing so, however, it is a good idea to know in which direction you are setting forth and where you are going to end up.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, the most striking feature of the Scottish referendum was that there was an 86% turnout and that the political life of Scotland was energised. Those of us who followed the debate in Scotland closely were aware of the contribution that was made by young people—16 and 17 year-olds—to the debate. As one looked at how the campaigns were developing, there were arguments breaking out within families, between young and old, and between friends. In the debates on television, young people were considering very carefully the issues that were put before them. They were articulate. When one looks at the result, they voted in a sensible way, as we would have thought, with a majority for no. They considered all the arguments. Contrast that with the political system that we have at the moment in Westminster. There is a lack of energy and an imbalance between the elderly part of the population and the younger part. When the next election comes along, all the political parties will be aiming a considerable part of their campaign at older voters. Why? Because older voters vote more regularly than younger people.

The campaign for votes at 16 and 17 is based on the idea that, having given young people their education in civics, politics and the political system up to the age of 16, why should there then be a gap which results in low turnouts among those aged over 18? Why should they not be given the responsibility when it comes to a devolved Assembly? What are young people most interested in? As the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, said, they are interested in educational issues; they are interested in job opportunity. They are less interested, perhaps, in health because they expect their health is for ever, but they are certainly interested in housing. These are issues that young people are considerably concerned about and they are issues that are devolved to Wales: jobs, education, health and housing. Why should young people at the age of 16 not exercise the responsibility they have been trained to accept?

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[Baroness Gale]

We certainly have not agreed to that at all. I am absolutely positive that we have not, but I take the noble Lord’s point.

The Welsh Labour Government believe that lowering the voting age would demonstrate a strong commitment to effective democracy in our nation. Engaging and encouraging young people in this way would help to improve voter turnout, as the recent experience in Scotland has shown. Lowering the voting age would also clearly demonstrate to young people in Wales that they are being taken seriously and their views are listened to. The Welsh Government support and value strong, effective democracy and recognise that the involvement of young people in the democratic process is essential to achieving this. However, the Welsh Government do not currently have the power to legislate on the voting age for elections held in Wales, as the UK Government retain responsibility for the conduct of elections and for the franchise. So while the Welsh Government do not have the power to lower the voting age in Wales, in decision-making they encourage young people’s participation. That has enabled them to have an important voice in our society in Wales.

I believe that there is a strong case for 16 and 17 year-olds to have the right to vote in all elections in the whole of the United Kingdom, but today we are dealing with matters relating to Wales and the Welsh Assembly, which has no legislative powers in this field. Your Lordships’ House could give full voting rights in Wales and, if this amendment is accepted, it would mean that at the next Welsh Assembly elections in 2016, 16 and 17 year-olds would have the right to vote.

I ask the Minister: if this coalition Government are unwilling to lower the voting age, then why do they not give those powers to the Welsh Government, who are committed to doing so? If the Welsh Assembly had such powers, I have no doubt that it would use them. There is now such strong evidence that this would be a popular move and that young people would welcome it. I trust that the Minister can now accept the evidence and, although there are different views, the force of the debate. I really look forward to what she has to say.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Before the noble Baroness sits down, can she tell me whether the Labour Party’s position is also to allow 16 year-olds to stand as candidates and, if not, why not?

[Baroness Gale]

My Lords, that is a very good question. It was only in recent years that we lowered that age to 18. I know that when the last Labour Government did that, people had doubts as to whether 18 year-olds should stand as candidates. I know, as most of us probably do, that 18 year-olds now have the right to stand as candidates and I know of 18 year-olds who have been elected to local councils and are doing a really good job. However, we have not discussed that, so I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Lord today on that question.

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[Baroness Randerson]

I may stand to be corrected by the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, whose experience of Assembly Standing Orders is much more recent than mine, but I believe that the two-thirds majority would still stand on issues such as this. I can see that he is nodding so there would be a requirement for a two-thirds majority, which is an Assembly Standing Order requirement.

I think we would all agree that this is a significant step in terms of Welsh devolution.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Why is this being restricted to the referendum and not extended to votes for the Assembly?

[Baroness Randerson]

There is no feeling in the Government that the Bill is an appropriate vehicle for establishing a different franchise for Wales from that for the rest of the United Kingdom. There is, as the noble Lord has argued several times today, a need for consistency across the United Kingdom on certain franchise issues and it is important that we do not take a decision in relation to one part of the country without considering the other nations and regions.

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[Baroness Randerson]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. I interpreted that phrase to mean that the decision should be made in Wales and that is what we will be seeking when we bring forward the amendment.

The Government do not accept that it would be right to impose on Wales a new franchise for elections to the Assembly or to local government as Amendments 3 and 11 seek to do, nor do we agree that this Bill should be the vehicle for devolving that power to the Assembly as Amendment 2 seeks to do. Devolving to Scotland the decision on whether 16 and 17 year-olds were able to vote in the referendum had no automatic read-across to the franchise for elections. As I have already mentioned, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has made it clear that he intends to begin discussions to seek cross-party consensus on the way forward for Welsh devolution. Electoral arrangements in Wales will form part of those discussions. That is the appropriate context for discussing these issues.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I apologise for interrupting my noble friend once more and I promise that I will not do it again. Can she be clear about what the principle is? I take her point about consistency across the United Kingdom. Is the principle that 16 year-olds will be able to vote in referenda which are concerned with devolved bodies, or is it a principle that is to be generally applied to all referenda? In other words, would 16 year-olds have the vote, for example, in a referendum on our membership of the European Union, should that ever arise, or is it solely limited to devolved bodies?

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, the amendment we are in the process of drafting specifically relates to this referendum on tax-raising powers because there are discussions still to be had across all parties—I suspect there will be lively discussions during the coming general election campaign—on whether votes at 16 should be adopted on a much wider basis.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the considerable number of noble Lords who have taken part in this important debate. A number of issues have come out that go well beyond the Bill we are discussing. I welcome the statement made by the Minister. It is a step in the right direction. One issue has come out loudest and mostly clearly. It started to raise its head in the earlier debate. It is the extent to which there is acceptance in this Chamber and at Westminster that we are now living in a pluralist democracy. By virtue of having devolved Governments and of having accepted devolution as a means of acting not only in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland but in London as well and possibly within England, we have accepted that things will be different in the different areas. There is no point whatever in having devolved structures if one does not accept the consequence that decisions will differ from area to area. The question that then arises is about which of the matters that we discuss here really do need to be decided on a UK level because of the basic nature of those decisions and which decisions can be devolved without making a considerable difference to what some Members of this Chamber would regard as the essential unity of the United Kingdom. That is something that has to be decided before one goes down the road of looking at commissions, conventions and all the rest.

I picked up one point that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made. He referred to a convention slowing matters down. Perhaps he used those words inadvertently, but they were the words that he used. I can understand, possibly, from his point of view, that that is how people would want to see it, but if that is the general approach of establishing a commission or a convention, it would also raise a lot of questions, not least in Scotland, if there are ideas that all this is going to slow down the whole process that has been so focused on in recent weeks.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I ought to be old enough not to have fallen into that trap. I was suggesting that, rather than rushing to solutions on a piecemeal basis and in a pre-election period, these issues need to be considered carefully. I have no desire to delay this matter. The sooner we stop talking about the constitution and concentrate on the issues that matter to our country, the happier I will be.

[Lord Wigley]

Many of us believe that getting the right devolution package is essential to all the countries of these islands in order to enable us to go on tackling the problems of day-to-day life in the economy, education, the health service and all the rest. That is basic. That is the purpose of it. I accept entirely that one does not make rushed decisions, particularly on constitutional matters, but neither should one be delaying them because delay is what causes frustration and sometimes brings the structures of government in these islands into question. We need to be able to take the proper decision on the right basis in a timely manner and in a way that carries people with us.

With regard to issues such as voting in referenda in Wales—I was very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for his kind remarks which I will pass on to my dear wife Elinor, who will be very grateful—I see nothing wrong in deciding these things in Wales. That applies to local elections or referenda that relate to matters purely within Wales. I understand that we could not decide in Wales alone to have votes at 16 for a UK election because that is the nature of the body. I was therefore very grateful to the Minister for the commitment to bring forward an amendment at Third Reading. I welcome the fact that that amendment will give the Assembly the right to take the decision with the two-thirds majority to which my noble friend Lord Elis-Thomas referred. That is the right approach. The decision should be there, but there should be safeguards. The two-third majority builds in that safeguard.

I regret that there is no willingness to look at this question in terms of elections. I hope that at some future stage, possibly in the context of a broader debate, that matter can be given further consideration. On the basis of the very significant step taken by the Government in this matter, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Wales Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Randerson]

The noble Lord makes an important point. By moving forward on a cross-party basis, it is the intention to ensure that there is commitment across the four parties in Wales to ensure that the Bill can come forward in the early stages of the next Parliament.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I apologise because I had to leave the Chamber for part of this debate. I do not understand. If my noble friend is talking about doing this by St David’s Day, which I think is in April—

[Noble Lords]

March.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

In March; forgive me or I shall ask people to tell me when Burns Night is. If my noble friend is talking about doing this within six months, why on earth is she against the amendment?

[Baroness Randerson]

The amendment refers to starting within six months of Royal Assent to this Bill—and, of course, that will not take place for some time yet, even assuming that it has a swift passage through the other place.

Wales: Devolution

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 19th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, I welcomed the establishment of the Silk commission, but the terms of reference given to it by the Secretary of State are in some respects ill judged. The commission is tasked to consider issues of accountability but not of fairness. The block grant and the Barnett formula, along with the system and structure of democratic representation in Wales, are off limits. The commission is required to consider fiscal matters before it considers constitutional matters when the nature of political and legislative devolution should, I think, determine the appropriate fiscal devolution.

The Barnett formula provides nearly 50% of public expenditure resources in Wales. It is comprehensively discredited. This was stressed in the Welsh Government’s response to the Silk commission consultation, and a while ago a Select Committee of your Lordships’ House provided a comprehensive and devastating analysis of the inadequacies of the Barnett formula. The funding provided by the Treasury to Wales is computed on the basis of changes to spending in England in policy areas that are devolved to Wales and the extent to which they are devolved to Wales, and on the size of the population relative to that of England. So resources provided to Wales follow political decisions and events that occur in England. Notoriously, the Barnett formula is not a needs-based formula, in contrast to the principles on which resources are allocated to local government, social security spending and health spending. The Barnett formula is bizarre and unjust, and it makes a mockery of the principle of devolution. The effect of per capita funding under the formula has been what the noble Baroness referred to as the Barnett squeeze. Wales receives less than if it were an English region. GDP per capita in Wales in 2007 was 77% of the UK average, but Wales received only 8% above the UK average. Holtham, which examined these matters pretty definitively, found that Wales had relative need of 115 per capita on a scale in which England was 100. Wales is poorer on all the significant indices: unemployment, child poverty, social security claims, disability, housing, education, health and mortality.

Poor people in Wales, including unemployed under-25 year-olds in the Alway and Ringland estates in Newport, whom the Prime Minister thinks ought, in due course, to cease to have housing benefit, are subsiding Scots living in wealthy suburbs. Holtham told us that Wales, which has less than 6% of the population of England, is short-changed by a figure in the order of £300 million. I cannot overstate the importance of this issue to Wales. There is no statutory basis for the Barnett formula, which is opaque in its process and has no independent audit—it is a disgrace.

The Government have hitherto set their face against change to the Barnett formula. Why? For reasons of political cowardice? The Conservative Party had nothing to lose in 2010, when it was set on finding every means possible to reduce the deficit, by tackling the problem of the overpayment of some £4 billion to £5 billion to Scotland under the Barnett formula, but mysteriously it did not do so. Was it because Liberal Democrats representing Scottish constituencies held it to ransom or is it simply a product of intellectual indolence in the Treasury?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I agree with almost everything the noble Lord says, but in fairness he ought to deal with the point that the Select Committee report was to the previous Labour Government, who were equally unwilling to address this issue.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

The noble Lord has, as so often, a telling point. I do not disagree with him at all. I am pleased that discussions are now taking place between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Wales. I hope that they will be fruitful, because for Wales reform of the Barnett formula is more important and urgent than any fiscal devolution. At a very minimum, as the noble Baroness said, there should be a floor in the block grant so that it does not fall below the level that would be provided under the English needs formulae. Of course, we need a properly developed needs-based formula for the block grant.

The coalition is obsessed with cutting public expenditure, deflating an already depressed economy. These issues are hugely important for Wales.

It is right in principle that if legislative powers are devolved, then tax-raising powers ought also to be devolved, including a power to vary levels of taxation. This satisfies the principle of accountability and will make for more responsibility and better value for money. It is appropriate that a Government elected by the people of Wales should have discretion to use resources as they judge appropriate for the benefit of the people of Wales. As the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, suggested too, these considerations ought to have been brought to bear at the very outset of the process of devolution.

What, however, would happen in practice if tax-raising powers were devolved? Wales needs more public expenditure or, at any rate, a less drastic reduction in public expenditure. It needs that if it is ultimately to be able to reduce the disproportionate size of the public sector in Wales. It needs to be able to invest in education and infrastructure and in a strategy to support the development of new leading private enterprise sectors in Wales. What Wales does not need is more and extra taxes laid upon people and businesses. I do not think anybody in Wales ought to nurse the illusion that the block grant would rise to compensate for tax cuts that might be introduced under fiscal devolution in Wales.

So, which taxes ought to be considered? Income tax is perhaps the prime candidate, but the power to raise or lower income tax by 3p in the pound would be a poisoned chalice. The Government of Wales have not sought that power. No doubt they would not refuse it if it were thrust upon them, but would they use it? I think it no more likely that the Government of Wales would than the Government of Scotland.

Then there is corporation tax, but there are problems defining Welsh companies. Holtham found that the only realistic way in which one might be able to devolve powers in relation to corporation tax in Wales was by reference to the number of people employed by Welsh businesses, but we do not want to create an incentive for Welsh employers to reduce the number of people that they employ. There is a broader principle. Competition between the territories of the United Kingdom to offer a lower rate of corporation tax might well not be in the interests of the United Kingdom as a whole.

I will not run over the whole litany of alternative taxes that noble Lords have already mentioned, but if there is to be fiscal devolution then choices have to be made from among the options of business rates, council tax on second homes, stamp duty land tax, capital gains tax on land and property, landfill, aggregates levy, air passenger duty, and so forth. If we examine the scope to use such devolved powers, we again run up against the problem that tax increases would be damaging to business and prosperity in Wales. The Welsh Local Government Association is right to insist that there needs to be a rigorous examination of the merits of devolving any one of these.

Borrowing powers seems a much simpler issue, whether for capital or to offset the volatility of revenue that would be consequent on Wales setting its own tax levels, but this is also excluded from the terms of reference of Silk. It was not, however, excluded from Silk’s consultation, nor from the responses. It is more attractive, but would Welsh Government bonds be underwritten by the Government of the United Kingdom? Is it realistic to suppose that there can be Keynesianism in one small country called Wales? How can fiscal devolution be a reality within a meaningful macroeconomic strategy for the United Kingdom?

The terms of reference of the Silk commission are very restricted on constitutional matters. I simply say that the constitutional matter that is most pressing and important for the people of Wales is the representation of the people of Wales in the Parliament of the United Kingdom. The coalition has legislated to reduce the number of Westminster constituencies for Wales by 25%. The voice and the votes of the people of Wales are to be very substantially reduced, as is the quality of the representation of the people of Wales because of the absurd exigencies of the redrawing of the boundaries. Therefore, I hope that Welsh Liberal Democrat MPs will not hesitate to vote down the proposals to reduce the number of constituencies.

I hope also that people in Wales will consider the issue of an elected second Chamber because if there are to be Senators for one vast Welsh constituency, wandering round undermining the work of Assembly Members and Welsh Members of Parliament without any accountability, and they are to be Members of a second Chamber that is going to be much more assertive in fiscal matters, then they will find that this reform is travelling in the very opposite direction of the devolution that they want.

The proper considerations are how to improve the accountability of the Welsh Government; how to provide funding commensurate with the responsibilities that are devolved, having first defined those; how to ensure a fairness of distribution of money across the United Kingdom; and how to strengthen, not weaken, the coherence of representative government across the United Kingdom. Is there any resting point for devolution? These are issues for everyone, not just for the people of Wales.

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[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I have described what was said in the coalition agreement for this Parliament. I do not think that anyone would be wise enough to predict the policy of any Administration, of whatever hue, in a subsequent Parliament. My noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Roberts of Llandudno were right to point out that the previous Administration did not address this either. Indeed, in their response to your Lordships’ Select Committee report, they stated that the Barnett formula:

“has a number of strengths”.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

There is unanimity throughout this House that Barnett has to be changed. Will the Minister explain the logic of the coalition agreement? What on earth has dealing with Barnett got to do with dealing with the deficit? Surely the Government are capable of doing more than one thing at the same time. I cannot see the linkage between addressing the Barnett formula and dealing with the deficit. The Barnett formula, if it is changed, is simply about the distribution of existing resources. It does not affect the deficit in any way. When the coalition agreement was drafted, what on earth was in the minds of the four people who did it?

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, I am not a mind reader. It does not necessarily follow that it is a zero-sum game, as my noble friend would consider. I have heard people make this case before and no one has suggested that it should be a “beggar my neighbour” approach, which could actually lead to an increase in expenditure.

In a debate on a commission that does not have the Barnett formula in its remit, the Government’s position is not going to change. I have indicated the Government’s position, but there are intergovernmental talks, which have been referred to, and the Government indicated that they would engage in them. I was asked a number of other questions, initially raised by my noble friend Lady Randerson. The talks between the United Kingdom Government and the Welsh Government are looking at all aspects of the Holtham reports, including the extent of convergence between the trends of devolved funding and equivalent funding for England, and how need might be best measured. The commission is not considering, as I made clear, the fundamental overhaul of the Barnett formula. However, as I indicated, it is looking at these issues, such as convergence—although at the present time it is divergence rather than convergence—and how the need might best be measured.

My noble friends Lord Maclennan and Lady Randerson asked about borrowing and the state of discussions, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Gale. The Silk commission is looking at the case for borrowing powers for Welsh Ministers as part of its consideration in part 1. The bilateral talks between the United Kingdom and Welsh Governments are looking at how the latter might best use their existing powers—I hope that this refers to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley—which were inherited by Welsh Ministers on the abolition of the Welsh Development Agency. They are, admittedly, relatively limited, but this is part of the ongoing discussion between the two Governments. Indeed, my right honourable friends the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Secretary of State for Wales have each met Jane Hutt, the Welsh Finance Minister, in the past fortnight, so these talks are very much alive and active.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, asked how the recent initiative to encourage the banks to lend more, announced by the Government this week, would impact on Wales. The funding for lending scheme is designed to boost lending in the real economy, making mortgages and loans cheaper and more easily available to families and businesses right across the United Kingdom. Wales will be as entitled to apply and take advantage of that as any other part of the country. The scheme opens on 1 August for 18 months.

Another important point, which was raised by noble friend Lord Maclennan and then spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Rowe-Beddoe, is that there have been a number of different commissions. They asked whether there was a possibility of taking a more strategic look. Very recently, the Prime Minister indicated that there will be a need for an open, involved and comprehensive conversation about what kind of union we want to see, and—almost 15 years after the process of devolution started in the United Kingdom—that we should consider the best way of having such a conversation. However, the Prime Minister made it clear that that should await the outcome of the Scottish referendum, which is likely to be in 2013-14. That view was reflected in at least one speech in your Lordships’ House today. We will certainly be arguing for the integrity of the United Kingdom and for Scotland to remain part of it. That is the first and foremost objective and focus of not just the Government but the Labour Party in Scotland and across the United Kingdom. The point is one that I suspect will feature in more of our debates in the weeks and months to come.

In conclusion, I indicate that in introducing the debate my noble friend asked how we might take forward the comments made in it. I certainly undertake to write to Paul Silk, drawing the commission’s attention to the fact that the debate has taken place and to the comments that have been made. It is also pertinent to say that not only to the commission but within government. Points have been made in this debate on which I am sure some of my colleagues in government will wish to reflect.