Immigration Bill
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(8 years, 3 months ago)
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Baroness Cox (CB)
My Lords, I support the amendment, to which I am a signatory. Last week, my noble friend Lord Alton and I presided over a hearing here in Parliament, where we heard graphic accounts of genocide and crimes against humanity from Yazidis and Christians from Syria and Iraq. Their first- hand testimonies were accompanied by supporting statements from relief organisations and charities working with these beleaguered communities, including Canon Andrew White, the courageous Anglican vicar of Baghdad.
Some 100 years after the Armenian genocide, these contemporary events are a continuation of a systematic campaign of annihilation which was planned by one caliphate, abolished in 1924 by the Grand National Assembly of Turkey but continued by another caliphate under the guise of the Islamic State—Daesh—today. Mass graves, beheadings, rapes, forced conversions, lootings and confiscation of property, are, sadly, nothing new. Nor is our failure to respond adequately to acutely vulnerable minorities.
This amendment is not about the misplaced free-for-all mistakenly promoted by Germany and now being urgently reassessed: nor is it about quotas or the unseemly bidding war about how many people any particular country has taken. Instead, the amendment focuses on a particularly vulnerable group of people now being subjected to genocide and argues that their asylum claims should be prioritised. Our first priority should always be those who have been singled out because of their religion, ethnicity or race. Although many people have been caught up in this suffering, we have particular obligations, as my noble friend highlighted, under the provisions of the Genocide Convention, to these minority groups. We also know that those who have been targeted do not represent a security threat to the United Kingdom and that, unlike for other categories of people, there are no countries in the region where they will be secure in the long term. They have nowhere to go.
In November I and my noble friend wrote to the Prime Minister, urging him to give priority to the most vulnerable—these minorities and children. We welcomed his decision to take vulnerable groups from holding countries such as Lebanon and Jordan, but we also pointed out that many of those fleeing from genocide have been too frightened to enter the camps and were living in informal settings, often without any help being given by UN agencies. In December, I was also a signatory to the letter sent to the Prime Minister—which my noble friend referred to—signed by 75 parliamentarians from both Houses and all sides, urging Her Majesty’s Government to name this genocide for what it is. So far, HMG have failed to do so—but, last week, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe declared that the treatment of Christians and Yazidis is indeed genocide.
Our colleagues in the House of Commons have been equally clear. I share with the House the wording of the all-party Motion tabled last week by a group of MPs in another place, which stated that,
“this House is appalled by the beheadings, crucifixions, shootings, burnings, other murders, torture, rape and extensive violence being perpetrated by Daesh or IS against Christians and other minorities in Syria and Iraq on the basis of religion and ethnicity; observes that this disgusting behaviour clearly falls within the definition of genocide as determined by the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide; notes the recent report from the UN Assistance Mission for Iraq, Protection of Civilians in the Armed Conflict in Iraq, which concludes that Daesh is holding approximately 3,500 slaves, mostly women and children in Iraq, primarily from the Yazidi community, and describes Daesh’s systematic and widespread violence as staggering, concluding that these acts amount to war crimes, crimes against humanity and possibly genocide; and calls on the Government to use all its influence at the UN to create a stated consensus that genocide is indeed being perpetrated so that the provisions of the Convention can urgently, legitimately and effectively be invoked and implemented”.
We should commend our colleagues, such as Mrs Fiona Bruce MP, the chair of the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission, who tabled that Motion, and we should give legislative force to an appropriate response to those who are suffering so grievously. This is urgent, as Christianity and ancient religions such as Yazidism are being wiped out in the Middle East.
Last week’s hearing took place on Holocaust Memorial Day. Among those who participated was Major General Tim Cross. He has said:
“Crucially, the various minorities in the region are suffering terribly. There can be no doubt that genocide is being carried out on Yazidi and Christian communities—and the West/international community’s failure to recognise what is happening will be to our collective shame in years to come”.
He also pointed to the irony that while we are neglecting our duty to protect these minorities we have been opening the door to others who may threaten the very fabric of our society.
Major General Cross quoted the Lebanese Prime Minister, who told David Cameron that he believed that for every 1,000 migrants entering Europe illegally there are at least two extremists—inner-core jihadis—which means that around 16,000 IS fighters have probably entered Europe over the last year or so. While we have been doing this, we have failed to protect those to whom we have a specific duty under international law. Major General Cross said:
“Our dilemma is how we separate ‘values’ and ‘interests’”.
This amendment offers us the opportunity to uphold our values, especially our belief in the rule of law, while also protecting our interests.
If we are not prepared to respond to the victims of genocide, we must seriously ask whether we should remove our signature from the 1948 convention on the prevention and punishment of genocide. What is the point of being a signatory if we are not prepared to accept the obligation—to see, to judge and to act? If we do not take such obligations seriously, as the amendment urges us to do, it fundamentally undermines that convention.
To remind noble Lords of what our obligations are, the convention makes it clear that genocide is not a random killing of individuals but a systematic killing or serious harming of people because they are part of a recognisable group. That group may be,
“national, ethnical, racial or religious”.
The treaty identifies acts committed with intent to destroy that group,
“in whole or in part”.
The convention also covers within the term “genocide” a range of other acts already highlighted by my noble friend.
In short, international law is clear and undeniably covers the many horrors unleashed by ISIL/Daesh in the Middle East—and, I may point out, by Islamist extremists in other countries, including several African states such as northern Nigeria and Sudan, both of which I have visited in the last two months and where I saw comparable horrors and atrocities perpetrated.
If an international law, defined by treaty, is being flouted, and if hundreds of thousands of innocent people who are entitled to rely on the protection of that law are being killed, and millions are being driven from their homes, it is absolutely incumbent on the signatories to that treaty to take action to ensure that it is enforced. Sadly, however, to date the issue has not been high on the agenda of the leaders of more than 100 nations that are signatories to that convention.
The convention is specific. The signatory nations may honour their commitments either by acting alone or by calling on the United Nations to prevent and punish genocide. That provision is hugely important in sending a clear message to the perpetrators of these dreadful acts: it warns them that they will be punished. So how can officials argue and give ambiguous replies that we can do nothing until others act? From the Nuremberg trials of the Nazi leaders after the Second World War to the more recent trials for genocide perpetrated in Rwanda and Bosnia, a very clear message should go out to all those involved in these evil movements of genocide. The message should be: the international community will, sooner or later, come for you. You will be found, you will be captured, you will be tried in accordance with the convention and you will be punished proportionately to your offence. And, as this amendment insists most importantly, we will care for those whom you target in these unspeakable ways.
I urge our Prime Minister and our Foreign Secretary to utter that one word, “genocide”. By using it in relation to the carnage befalling the Christians, Yazidis and other minorities in the Middle East, Her Majesty’s Government would be sending a clear message to ISIS and other groups that there will be a reckoning for their despicable actions.
In conclusion, Britain punches far above its weight in world diplomacy and international relations. We must ask our Government to have the courage to speak the right word to the international community and to follow the word with appropriate deeds. This amendment is an opportunity for us to do just that. At the very minimum, I hope that the Minister will undertake to go back to the Home Secretary and other ministerial colleagues and weigh these arguments with great care between now and Report.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, I apologise for not having taken part in any of the proceedings on this legislation. Quarter past 10 at night in the middle of the week seems, perhaps, not the best moment to set forth on this matter. However, I am ashamed to say that until I was briefed by a friend, Mr Graham Hutton, chairman of the Aid to the Church in Need, about the position of Christians in Syria and Iraq, I was wholly ignorant of the extent of the atrocities that are occurring.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am grateful to my noble friend. I entirely accept what he says about Muslims being subject to horrors as well as Christians, but could he deal with the point that the problem for Christians is that they cannot go to the official camps because they fear for their safety, because, once again, they are a minority? Is there any possibility of creating some kind safe haven? That in itself may create a further security problem for them. The genocide point is that it would enable immediate action to be taken.
Lord Bates
Certainly, the situation is that we would take families from within the camps and from the surrounding areas. It is not exclusively from the camps; it is those who are identified as being in greatest need. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, raises an interesting point on the camps. I shall certainly feed that back to the department and seek some reassurance, and perhaps write to him and other noble Lords on what protections are arranged in the camps where DfID and others are involved to be sensitive to the needs of Christians.
European Union: Schengen Agreement
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(8 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will encourage the European Union to suspend the Schengen arrangements and reinstate border controls between member states.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)
My Lords, the reintroduction of border controls within the Schengen area is ultimately a decision for the Schengen states themselves. However, given the possible security threats, the Government have a strong interest in ensuring that Schengen states effectively combat illegal transit into and across their borders.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, I am grateful for that Answer. Does my noble friend agree that a Government’s first duty is to protect the security and well-being of their people? Given that the European Union has failed to police both its external and internal borders, is it not the duty of the Prime Minister to regain control of Britain’s borders?
Lord Bates
Of course, my noble friend is absolutely right, and we have control of those borders because, in the Maastricht treaty, as he and I know, Sir John Major managed to negotiate an opt-out from the Schengen area. We retain strong control over our borders, which is quite essential. We look at the situation happening in Europe at present and we are not dispassionate, because the issues and security concerns that we have about Europe ultimately come towards us—so we need to work with our EU partners. We believe that the type of discussion that they are now having about strengthening the external border to the EU is absolutely right and timely.
Airport Capacity
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(8 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The right reverend Prelate raises the media report of comments made over the weekend by the chairman of IAG, which I have read. I assure the right reverend Prelate that we continue not just on this issue of airport expansion in the south-east but meet regularly with all airlines to ensure that, as we plan our infrastructure and how we plan to move forward on this agenda, airlines are part and parcel of our consultation. Obviously, the chairman has made some comments on issues he feels strongly about, but perhaps it would be inappropriate to speculate on the true intent behind his comments.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest as a regular flyer from Scotland to London who avoids Heathrow at every possible opportunity because of congestion, and as a member of the Economic Affairs Committee, which interviewed Sir Howard Davies when he published his report. Can my noble friend say how much the Davies report cost? Given that it was a very expensive, thorough and authoritative report, what is the point of commissioning a report which makes a clear recommendation, at very considerable cost to the taxpayer, and then ignoring it?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
If I may, I will write specifically on the issue of cost, but it is not being ignored; estimates have been made of that. The important point my noble friend raises is about the commission. Yes, the previous Government initiated the commission in 2012. As I have said previously from this Dispatch Box, we have committed ourselves to ensuring that the report of the commission is duly considered, which we are doing and have done since its publication, and that will form the basis of however the Government choose to proceed. We are not discarding the findings of the Davies commission—on the contrary, we are supportive of them and are ensuring that all elements raised within the Davies commission and through the Audit Committee’s recent report are built into our response. We will move forward in a positive frame in that regard in the summer of next year.
Davies Commission Report
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(8 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
The Government consider their public service obligations very seriously, as I am sure the noble Lord knows. It is not that we have not interjected in recent times. For example, the route has been protected from Gatwick to Newquay, as have routes up to Dundee. Where the criteria are met, the Government have exercised their option and met their obligations. We are keen to ensure that public service obligations are, if you like, the backstop, to ensure that any concerns over particular domestic routes are retained.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
Does my noble friend not agree that it is wrong to hold the Prime Minister to what he said some years ago when faced with a report that has been carefully considered and that says unequivocally that it is in the national interest for the expansion of Heathrow to go ahead? It is his duty to proceed as recommended. I very much welcome the fact that the Official Opposition have indicated their support for that. Has this thing not been in a holding pattern for far too long? We need to get on with it.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I thank my noble friend for the first analogy about aircraft and holding patterns. I agree with what he said about the Prime Minister’s statement. We are looking at something very different. I stress to all noble Lords that the Government commissioned the report in 2012. It is extensive and covers a range of factors, including mitigating factors, regional connectivity and a raft of other matters. I am sure noble Lords agree that it is right that the Government look at the report’s recommendations, evaluate them and come back in the autumn with their response.
Severn Bridge: Tolls
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(8 years, 10 months ago)
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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
I am sure the noble Lord is aware that where tolls are used, there is a specific purpose. As I have already said, the issue concerning the crossing we are discussing relates to ongoing maintenance. As far as the Government’s commitment to the roads programme is concerned, I am sure the noble Lord is aware that we have already committed to £24 billion-worth of road improvements, and that will continue over the next five-year period.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, following the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, could my noble friend assist me? Is there any reason at all why the Welsh Government could not pay for this if they chose to do so?
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
One of the crossings is actually in England. When we come to the end of the concession period, we will discuss such management issues with the Welsh Government.
EU: Justice Opt-outs
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(9 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Bates
The noble Baroness says that we were not engaging in discussions, but these discussions through the working groups were absolutely ongoing all the time. That was the reason why we secured the improvements which we got through to the European arrest warrant in terms of proportionality, dual criminality and avoiding lengthy pre-trial detentions. In terms of every single one of the 135 measures, again, we set out very clearly in Command Paper 8671, which was laid before your Lordships’ House in July 2013, our view as to what the application was and whether it was necessary. From that, we took the view that 35 were necessary; that was why the Prime Minister wrote in July last year.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
Can my noble friend explain to me, as someone who voted for the Maastricht treaty on the basis of an assurance that justice and home affairs would always remain within the jurisdiction of this Parliament, why, instead of opting into the European arrest warrant, we could not simply have made a bilateral arrangement with the rest of the EU?
Lord Bates
I obviously acknowledge the fact that we both voted for the Maastricht treaty. We were both in another place at the time and were part of the Government who did that. I recognise that that was the right thing to do, but the reality is that the pass was sold on this in the 2009 signing of the Lisbon treaty. That is, we have to live in the real world, as we are now, and keep our borders safe. It was good that the opt-in on justice and home affairs was negotiated to be included by the previous Government, but it was this Government who actually took it and have exercised it in this regard.
Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(10 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
I am following my noble friend’s argument closely, but could he give an example of the kind of thing for which he thinks this provision might provide a remedy?
Lord Faulks
It would provide a remedy for myriad different circumstances—perhaps the sort of behaviour where youths gather specifically under a particular person’s window and regularly play noisy music, are aggressive and perhaps smoke cannabis, providing day by day harassment of individuals.
Baroness Hamwee (LD)
My Lords, in response to that I can say that frequently and over decades I have been annoyed and alarmed and distressed by Manchester City.
When I read this Bill I too was concerned about the threshold, but as someone who has something—I know—of a reputation as a fluffy liberal I understand the Bill’s architecture much better than I did when I first came to it. It meets the principles enunciated at the start of the debate. I have understood the context as well, and am reassured that the everyday annoyances that have been used as examples and of which we are all capable will not be caught. Crucially, I have understood that preventing behaviour from escalating and staying out of the criminal justice system are at the heart of this part of the Bill.
Noble Lords have talked about the body of case law that has been built up in the housing sector; there was certainly an effective, large lobby from it at the earlier stage. I agree with my noble friend Lord Faulks about the difficulties of discriminating between two housing sectors. It is not that one is caught in social housing but not caught in owner-occupied housing—from which it may be very difficult to move—in quite the distinctive way that has been described.
Even as a lawyer I see that “convenient” in the term “just and convenient” has an everyday connotation that seems a bit baffling in this context, but the term has a pedigree, as does the case law built up in the social housing sector. It is quite a hurdle to overcome. Lawyers in this House far more experienced than me may correct me, but I understand the term to incorporate “reasonableness”, “proportionality” and “appropriateness”. I do not see the examples that have been cited as being caught within this; I have seen neither the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, nor even the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, at a rally or on a march, nor many of my friends who might want to be lobbying outside the MoJ against legal aid cuts. It just does not extend in that way, because there is that protection.
Unlike the current ASBO, the IPNA takes offenders directly into the criminal justice system.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I apologise for interrupting my noble friend and am grateful to her. May I ask her the same question I asked my noble friend Lord Faulks? Can she give us a specific example of something that would be prevented by the Bill as it stands?
Baroness Hamwee
My noble friend is asking for examples of behaviour. It could be kids kicking a football around on a bit of open ground—which happens on a bit of open ground next to my house. I am lucky enough to live on the Thames but I find it extremely annoying to have discovered that rowing is the most noisy activity: one might not have expected it. It could be a bit of drinking—not drunken behaviour but people sitting around with a can of lager. I know from neighbours’ comments that they feel apprehensive about that and, although there has never been anything for them to be apprehensive about, they just do not like people sitting around drinking cans of lager in public. I also suggest dogs being exercised on the same ground where children play—there are a lot of annoyances in that kind of area. People see me and no doubt think that I am a poor old lady delivering pizza leaflets for tuppence a thousand when I am delivering political leaflets.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Is my noble friend suggesting that all these examples should be capable of being stopped by the courts?
Baroness Hamwee
Of course, if people feel threatened and their lives are badly impinged upon. That is what the Government are trying to prevent by this Bill. I do not want to downplay the impact of some bad behaviour on many people who react in a way in which I would not necessarily react, but the impetus to prevent—
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I shall be coming on to that, but I felt I had to place what I was going to say in some context—and I am grateful for the discipline of the House in allowing me to do just that. Our aim is to allow decent law-abiding people to go about their daily lives, engage in normal behaviour and enjoy public and private spaces without having their own freedoms constrained by anti-social individuals.
The test for an injunction, when taken as a whole, coupled with the wider legal duty on public authorities, including the courts, to act compatibly with convention rights, would ensure that the injunction cannot be used inappropriately or disproportionately. As I have explained, government Amendment 2 is designed to strengthen the first limb of the test so that the conduct must be such that it could reasonably be expected to cause nuisance or annoyance. This limb on its own is likely to preclude an injunction being sought or granted under this Bill to deal with bell ringers, carol singers or children playing in the street. However, there is a second part to the test.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I ask my noble friend the same question that the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, was unable to answer. Can he give one example of a problem that would not be resolved by the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Dear? What is the problem that the Government are seeking to deal with? Can he give one example?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
If I might say, it solves the problem of over-complex legislation. Having two tests for the single problem of anti-social behaviour was not the Government’s intention in drawing up this legislation.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I do not want to detain my noble friend, but I am asking for an example of the kind of behaviour that would not be caught by the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Dear. We understand the Government’s intentions, but it is not clear what the problem is that they seek to remedy. Can he give one example that would not be caught under the amendment?
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
I do not intend to give any examples to my noble friend. I have given the reason why we have a single test for anti-social behaviour leading to an IPNA. I have given my reasoning, and I hope that my noble friend will accept it; I am not going to go into listing individual activities that the IPNA is intended to address. That is why we have a single test and why noble Lords will understand that I am speaking in justification of that single test.
The second part of the test is not a throwaway test, as some have suggested. It is under this limb of the test that the court will consider whether it is reasonable and proportionate in all the circumstances to grant an injunction. In making such an assessment, the court will consider the impact on the respondent’s convention rights, including the rights to freedom of speech and assembly.
I agree with the noble Lord that we should not leave it to the courts to apply these important safeguards. All these factors will weigh on the minds of front-line professionals in judging whether to apply for an injunction. Our draft guidance makes this clear. This will be backed up by a framework of professional standards and practice operated by the police, local authorities and housing providers.
Having said all that—and I apologise to my noble friend for not giving him an example—I have listened to the strength of feeling around the house on this issue. The Government’s purpose is plain: we wish to protect victims. ASB, or anti-social behaviour, ruins lives and wrecks communities. In our legislation, we need to ensure that authorities seeking to do so have coherent and effective powers to deal with anti-social behaviour. Recognising noble Lords’ concerns, I commit to take the issue away to give myself the opportunity in discussion with the noble Lord and others to provide a solution that clarifies the use of the legislation and safeguards the objective, which I think is shared around this House, of making anti-social behaviour more difficult and protecting those who are victims of it.
On those grounds, and on the understanding that the Government will return to the issue at Third Reading, I will not move for now government Amendment 2, and I hope that on the commitment to discuss the issue the noble Lord, Lord Dear, will not press his amendment.
Alcohol: Late Night Drinking
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(10 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Taylor of Holbeach
The noble Baroness will know that the Government have made an announcement on this. Although minimum pricing is always there to be considered, the policy that we are going to introduce is that no drink can be sold at less than the cost of duty plus VAT. I can give some examples. It will mean that a 4% can of lager will have a floor price of 40 pence and a 70 centilitre bottle of vodka will not be able to be sold at below £8.89.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that, while dealing with irresponsible drinking, we should not penalise responsible drinkers and those who run responsible premises with policies like minimum alcohol pricing or, indeed, the levy? It means that people who are out celebrating—perhaps the return of good government—end up paying more than they would otherwise because of those who behave badly.
Lord Taylor of Holbeach
My noble friend is perfectly correct to say that the thrust of the Government’s policy is to tackle the irresponsible consumption of alcohol and, indeed, our measures are designed to do that. They will create situations in which people feel that, in licensing matters, they too can be involved in the decision-making process.
Queen’s Speech
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(11 years ago)
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Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, it is a great honour to take part in the debate on the most gracious Speech. Reading through the speech several times, I was struck by how central to everything is the economic situation in this country and how we have to measure everything against that.
The first statement in the gracious Speech is:
“My Government’s legislative programme will continue to focus on building a stronger economy so that the United Kingdom can compete and succeed in the world”.
I am fully aware that the debate today is considering constitutional affairs, equalities, home affairs, justice and law, but the state of the economy affects each and every one of those areas. We must arrange our finances to achieve the measures proposed; I suggest that we cannot debate any of them without considering the economy.
Despite all the valiant attempts of the Government to turn around the economic situation, and acknowledging that much has been done, the country remains in a fragile state. It is proving very hard to set the country back on the road to recovery. We can take some weak comfort from the fact that we are by no means in as serious trouble as many others. The message from the EU at the moment is decidedly grimmer, with members of the eurozone openly talking about huge and almost fatal difficulties.
It is imperative that we concentrate on the promotion of growth, on clearing up the financial mess left by the previous Administration, and on the necessity of creating new jobs, particularly for the young, who when they planned their futures, let us remember, never expected that youth unemployment would be one of the most worrying features of their post-school or post-higher education lives. The UK is to be given credit for having done much better than other EU member states, but so many young people today feel betrayed that the promises of good jobs in their bright future are not materialising.
Many of the measures proposed in the gracious Speech are excellent but will need a gargantuan effort to achieve. The energies and considerable resources of the Government must be focused on the economy.
Why am I speaking about the economy so much? The first reason is that I cannot take part in the debate on Monday, which will deal with the economy, because each Monday while the House is sitting—and occasionally when it is not—Sub-Committee B of the EU Select Committee meets to scrutinise documents, proposed directives and information from the European Commission and Parliament. The production of this mini-avalanche is relentless and the timetable is quite restricted. It is essential that we keep abreast and ahead. Secondly, I am convinced that the state of the economy is such that, as I said, every section of the gracious Speech can be measured against it.
Sadly, at a time when we face so many different and troubling challenges, the Government have decided to launch an astonishing attack on our tried and tested values by redefining marriage. Those of us who have been following the process in the other place knew perfectly well that the legislation was going to come here. It was perhaps wishful thinking that led so many people and sections of the population to believe that, because the Bill was not mentioned yesterday morning, it was not going to happen—mind you, that was put right within four hours.
Marriage is at the heart of our way of life, our communities and our country. The union of the two sexes, uniting men and women to each other and to their children, provides the foundation for human flourishing. We have heard today in this House a discussion about childcare and children not flourishing when they get to school because they have not had proper childcare. It is within the bounds of marriage that this happens.
Equality is put forward as the basic reason for this action by the Government, but very little more equality is needed. I think that we are talking more about equality in the name: some people want to say that they are married rather than suggesting that there is anything wrong with marriage at the moment or that marriage has equivalence with same-sex couples being together.
As everyone will remember, we had many discussions on the Civil Partnership Act. I remember clearly the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, agreeing that the Civil Partnership Act had caused more discrimination in another area. It is like pushing down one bit only for it to come up somewhere else. We were discussing the case of sisters—anyone who was there at the time will remember the injustice being done to them; your Lordships can look it up in Hansard. The noble and learned Baroness emphasised at the government Dispatch Box, “It is not for this Bill. I agree that it is discrimination, but it is not for this Bill at this time”. We accepted that, but when is it going to be tackled because, again, sisters are left out of it?
The evidence from social science is now emphatic that children do best when raised by their married mother and father. I mention just one example: a paper from the Institute for Fiscal Studies observes that, even by the age of three, there are “significant differences” in outcomes between children born to married parents and those born outside marriage. Children born to married parents showed superior social, emotional and cognitive development. There are many other studies which provide powerful evidence of the positive benefits of marriage. Should we throw this up in the air?
Marriage will continue to be the bedrock of society only if it remains the legal union of one man and one woman. The current plans seek to change the meaning of marriage. Such a complete rewriting of a fundamental social institution can have only serious and some unpredictable consequences. Many people question whether the Government have the moral authority to attempt this redefinition. Most people in this country object to its imposition over their heads; they want marriage to remain as it is.
It greatly saddens me that my party is pursuing such a radical and aggressive social agenda and in such an undemocratic fashion—and I repeat, “undemocratic”. I listened carefully to my noble friend Lord Fowler, with whom we have jostled many times on these issues. I say that there is no mandate to make this change since the idea is not in our manifesto—nor indeed is it in those of the other parties; my noble friend says that that does not really matter and that, after all, the dock labour scheme changes were not in the manifesto. Well, I consider that the dock labour scheme, which was wonderful and achieved a lot, is nothing like as important as the fundamental rocking of the state of social cohesion in this country.
The proposal to redefine marriage is unpopular and wholly unnecessary. I was very struck by my noble friend’s argument that the only power in this country lies with the elected representatives. It is a cogent case which I accept, but if there are elected representatives, what are they elected for? They are elected to listen to their constituents and to represent those thoughts—if they do not show them the error of their ways—in the national Parliament. It seems to me that in this case the representatives have all the power because, as my noble friend says, the only people with power in the country are the MPs. However, they do not have any responsibility, because they do not seem to be taking any responsibility to listen to their constituents—certainly not on this matter.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Does not my noble friend agree that the argument of my noble friend Lord Fowler about the sovereignty of the House of Commons would be much more powerful if the Government were not imposing a timetable Motion on the consideration of these matters by the elected House?
Electoral Registration and Administration Bill
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts(11 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Elton
My Lords, I really was up first and I merely want to ask the noble Lord this question. He has made a very moving and appealing speech. Before he sits down—
Lord Hart of Chilton
Well, I shall. The relevance comes as a result of the Boundary Commission’s work deciding numbers and constituencies upon the raw data from the electoral register. As I have said, if the electoral register is wrong and produces wrong data then the Boundary Commission and its findings in terms of constituencies and numbers will also be wrong. That is the relevance.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I apologise for getting the procedure wrong. My point was rather similar to my noble friend’s. The noble Lord has given by way of response, as a justification for riding a coach and horses through our procedures, an argument about the Bill and its provisions. What is at stake here is not whether his opinion is different from the Clerk’s, but that our convention has been that we accept the Clerk’s advice. Can he explain why he is prepared to ride roughshod over that, with all the precedents that it creates and the difficulties that it will cause for the House, which is nothing whatever to do with the substance of the Bill?
Lord Hart of Chilton
I explained, I hope, a moment ago why what I am saying is relevant to the particular proposals of the Bill. It is for the House to decide its procedure. In the sense that I have found it completely compelling that it is relevant, it is for the House to decide, in due course, what the outcome of the debate should be. If the view of the House is that what I have said is irrelevant, out of scope, nothing to do with the Bill at all, then the voting will take place accordingly. If, however, there are people——and I suspect there are many—who agree with me then they will vote to the contrary.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
My Lords, I was sorry not to be in the House on Tuesday when tributes were paid to the departing Leader. What was said was very well said, I wish I had been there to say something too.
When my name appeared on this amendment, I was summoned by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, to explain myself. There was a little bit of the headmaster’s study about it, but it was done with his customary style and charm. I will explain to the House why my name is on this amendment in exactly the terms that I explained it to the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde. It is for reasons that are to do with Scotland. I believe that the largest threat at the moment to the constitutional settlement in these islands is the secession referendum in Scotland next year. The First Minister of Scotland is an extremely skilful politician, and one needs to be very careful of being complacent about where the public opinion polls are. The Scots, who are extremely good at grievances, have in the boundary changes and the changes to the number of constituencies, a very real grievance. Unusually for the Scots, the grievance is real. The reduction in the number of constituencies in England will be 6%, in Scotland it will be 12%.
When we were debating the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act, I argued several times that we should take due account when we were considering the size of constituencies and the size of the franchise—the 5% either way—we should take account of peripherality and sparsity, the distance from London, the difficulty of the MP’s job, and the difficulty of getting round the constituency if it was an enormous one. I remind noble Lords that the coastline of Argyll is longer than the coastline of France. If we look at the results, we see that leaving aside the four island constituencies, the two Scottish island constituencies, and the two on the Isle of Wight, the average Scottish constituency fetches up considerably larger than the average English constituency. This seems to be a perverse reading of the principles of peripherality and sparsity.
I do not wish to see this proceeded with in advance of the secession referendum in Scotland. It would be perpetually argued in the campaign that the numbers show Westminster less and less willing to listen to Scottish concerns and that defending Scottish interests requires secession, something I profoundly disagree with.
I remind noble Lords that the suggested reduction to 52 seats in Scotland is on top of the reduction from 72 11 years ago. The number went down in 2005 to 59, now it is to go down again to 52. The reason it went down in 2005 is to do with devolution. Once we have dealt with the secession threat, once we have secured the right result on the referendum, we need to come to the West Lothian question, but I do not believe that any of us in this House believe that the right answer to the West Lothian question is to make it more and more difficult for Scottish Members of the United Kingdom Parliament to do their job. I think that most of us believe that the right answer is to have Scottish MPs not voting in the Westminster Parliament on matters where they would be voting only on English, Irish or Welsh law. If we succeed, I think that we will have a chance to come back to the question. That is the moment when we should consider how many Westminster seats there should be for Scotland.
Urged by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and because I have great respect for the clerks, I have considered very carefully the question of relevance. I admit that I have considerable difficulty with a definition of “relevance” which is so narrow and so far removed from what the outside world would understand. The subject matters of the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Act and this Electoral Registration and Administration Bill are inextricably intertwined. The argument was explained most clearly in our earlier discussion in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. The intertwining is particularly close during the present transitional phase as regards registration. Every constituency in the land is changed by the PVSC and it seems quixotic to use data which are so out of date and will be so radically altered by the new registration arrangements. The matters clearly are closely connected. We see from the quotation from Erskine May circulated with the Leader’s letter that amendments relating to the purposes of the Bill, if it has only one or two purposes,
“or touching on matters closely connected with them”,
can be considered as relevant. I cannot conceive of anything more closely connected than the issues that we are talking about now.
Were we in the House of Commons, and were we being guided by Erskine May, there would be no question but that this was an admissible amendment to the Bill. After deep thought, I am encouraged to stick to my guns by the advice that we heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, when she told us of her experience in handling such tricky matters in the other place. I was heartened by what she said. She urged us to rise to our responsibilities. It is for us to decide; we cannot delegate that task to the clerks to decide for us. It is for us to make up our minds, and it is in that spirit that I maintain my support for the amendment and hope that the Committee will vote for it.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I was intrigued as to why the noble Lord had put his name to this amendment. I was particularly intrigued, because of his background as a very senior civil servant whom we all held in very high regard, as to why he would go against the principle, which has been upheld in this House, that we accept the advice of the clerks. The noble Lord is arguing is that, where the players on the field do not like the result, they should have a vote on whether they agree with the referee. The noble Lord prayed in aid the noble Baroness, Lady Boothroyd, for whom I have even more regard—indeed, I voted for her as Speaker in the House of Commons—but the position in the other place is completely different. They have a Speaker, and I say to the noble Lord that, if we go down this road, we may very well end up with such a situation in this House, which would be a very bad thing indeed.
However, it never occurred to me for a moment that the noble Lord would bring Scotland into the argument. He takes as his title, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard. Kinlochard is at the bottom of the loch by which I live; I look at Kinlochard. I have to tell the noble Lord that the people in Kinlochard are not beset with the question of how many Members of Parliament represent them. In fact, their view of Members of Parliament is probably best not repeated in this House. To argue that the nationalists will use the legislation to exploit opposition to the United Kingdom is utterly ridiculous. Alex Salmond wants there to be no Members in the House of Commons from Scotland and to argue that he is going to be concerned by a reduction in the number of Members is ridiculous. To be fair to the SNP, it has always accepted that in return for more powers—which they call devo-max—there should be a reduction in the number of MPs. This is a wholly spurious argument. If the noble Lord had said that he was supporting this amendment because he thought it would help the Labour Party to win the next election, I could have understood the argument, but I have to say that his argument cuts no ice with me at all.
What is the origin of this? How have we got into this mess? Why are we faced with this problem? The answer is that the Deputy Prime Minister is cross. He is cross that, despite repeated warnings, his Bill—which was not properly thought through—crashed on landing in the other place. He said something quite extraordinary the other day. Before he had even heard the Prime Minister’s speech which is to be made in Europe, he said that he was going to go to Europe in order to translate the Prime Minister’s speech on Europe from double-Dutch to Dutch. What we are seeing today is that the Deputy Prime Minister is capable of going from cross to double-cross, because that is what this is. It is a double-cross.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I certainly will not withdraw. There was a clear commitment which had nothing whatever to do with House of Lords reform. I have sat in this Chamber and have gone along with things that I did not like at all, such as the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill, the boundaries Bill, the coalition agreement and the deal on AV. All these things we went along with on the basis that there was a bargain which was in the interest of the nation. At no stage, as my noble friend Lady Browning pointed out, was the issue of House of Lords reform in any way attached to the question that we are considering today. The Prime Minister is being cheated by his Liberal colleagues.
I want to oppose this amendment because, to me, it breaches three important constitutional principles. The first is collective responsibility. We have Ministers in this Government who are Conservatives and Liberal. When I was in the Government, I understood that if you were a member of the Government and you did not agree with their policy, you resigned from the Government. You do not take the Queen’s shilling and then go through the lobbies and vote against the Prime Minister. That is what is going to happen tonight and it is an absolute disgrace.
The second principle is the one which I have talked about—maintaining the self-regulation of the House of Lords. The third is the integrity of the Boundary Commission decisions. I have told this House before that when I was Secretary of State for Scotland I had to sign a Boundary Commission report which destroyed my constituency as a Conservative opportunity in 1997. There were other factors in 1997 which may have added to my defeat. I freely acknowledge that, but it never occurred to me for a millisecond not to sign off that Boundary Commission report, because it is an absolute principle that people should not play politics with parliamentary constituencies and boundary matters.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I know that noble Lords opposite are thinking back to Mr James Callaghan and all that, but that was a long time ago. In those days, there was a very big row about it as I recall. Of course, it could be argued that a deal was done by the coalition whereby they got their AV referendum, and I may say the Prime Minister risked the future of the Conservative Party as a party of government by agreeing to that. The Liberals believed that they could win it and the voters gave their answer; yet here today we have the Liberals still trying to gerrymander our constitution. That is what is going on here because they voted for the legislation which has been approved by Parliament that gave an instruction to the Boundary Commission. The right thing to do now is for both Houses to approve the Boundary Commission proposals. That has been the precedent and this is an attempt to gerrymander our constitution for political reasons because it has occurred to the Liberals that they might very well evaporate at the next general election. All they have to hang on to is the thought that they might be able to hang on with the benefit of incumbency. Of course, if we had fair constituencies, many of their people would not have that incumbency and they would lose their seats. So they are putting their own party interests before the democratic interest, dressing that up as some kind of defence of democracy and linking it with House of Lords reform.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am most grateful to the noble Lord. Could he, with his experience as Speaker in the other place, clarify the comparison being made, which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, referred to as persuasive—that somehow the Speaker’s ability to disregard the clerks’ advice at the other end of the corridor is analogous to this House as a whole disregarding the clerks’ advice? Surely that is not the case, because the convention in the House of Commons is that the Speaker’s ruling is not challenged.
Lord Martin of Springburn
The noble Lord is quite right. However, it is not only the Speaker who gets advice from the clerks; as I said, the Chairman of Ways and Means and the chairmen of committees do as well. It is done on the basis that of course, as the noble Baroness said, a matter can be given an airing. A Speaker can put forward an amendment as a safety valve for the House, to allow the matter to get an airing, while possibly knowing that the amendment will be defeated. However, as one noble Lord said, there is no way that a Speaker or his advisers would allow a situation where the guts were taken away from a piece of legislation that had previously been passed. If we pass this amendment, we are allowing someone to say, “I wasn’t happy with the last piece of legislation, so I will create an amendment and look for a near kindred piece of legislation to latch it on to”. That is not a good way to run a Parliament.