Environment Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 15th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 122, tabled in my name and those of noble Lords across the Chamber, including the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean—whom I am pleased to see in his place—I shall speak also to Amendment 127, which is in my name and supported by the same noble Lords. I declare my interest as president of the Heritage Railway Association.

The Heritage Fuels Alliance, which encompasses heritage railways and locomotives, steam road vehicles, steamboats and ships, engineering museums and historic houses, has worked hard to win the argument that to ban coal burning by its members would be disproportionate and absurd. It has demonstrated that it would inflict untold damage on a sector which, in the case of heritage railways alone, brings so much pleasure to 13 million visitors a year, engages 22,000 active volunteers, provides 4,000 jobs and contributes £400 million to the national and regional economies.

The vast majority of heritage railways, road steam events and steamboat operations are located in rural areas. This means the economic benefit is all the greater, especially where some heritage railways are the leading visitor attractions in their area, while any environmental impact is well away from clean air zones. Indeed, three national parks—the North York Moors, Snowdonia and Exmoor—all welcome and actively encourage their heritage railways. As an indicator of how much they matter to the country, and to the Government too, those in England and Wales received around £25 million from the Government’s Culture Recovery Fund to help them survive the Covid pandemic.

Turning to coal burning, the latest available figures, from 2018, show that emissions from coal boilers were 0.023% of total carbon dioxide emissions. The total heritage coal use is around 35,000 tonnes, compared with total UK coal consumption of 8.2 million tonnes. The sector has accepted with reasonably good grace that, in future, the coal it burns will not be mined in Britain, despite enormous untouched reserves, but imported. It is also working hard to reduce emissions and to trial the use of biocoal.

The heritage steam sector has received assurances from Ministers, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist, that the Environment Bill and particularly its clean air provisions will not apply to them, but they have so far resisted suggestions that they should put these assurances in the Bill and make it clear that primary legislation would be required if this were ever to change.

An identical amendment to Amendment 122 was debated in Committee on 5 July and supported by all noble Lords who spoke to it, including the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe—in her place this evening—who warned in a memorable phrase that

“this Bill could bring about the death of Thomas the Tank Engine and his or her nautical steamboat equivalent.”—[Official Report, 5/7/21; col. 1106.]

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, posed a question which I put again this evening. He said:

“It is important that people have the assurance of primary legislation, especially when we see so much legislation that contains powers for Ministers under Henry VIII clauses, pretty well to do as they like, and which this House can do nothing about by tradition because we do not vote against secondary legislation. Will the Minister say why the Government are resistant to putting a clear commitment in the Bill that heritage vehicles not only are not within the scope of the Bill but are protected from the whims of any Minister?”

I hope we will get an answer to that this evening too. I cannot resist just quoting one memorable phrase earlier in his speech when he described Ministers as being

“here one day and gone the next—indeed, they can be here one afternoon and gone by evening.”

He said:

“It is not enough, despite Pepper v Hart, just to have an assurance from the Dispatch Box.”—[Official Report, 5/7/21; cols. 1111-12.]


Amendment 127 includes a reference to other subordinate legislation to include, for example, by-laws brought in by local authorities or other public authorities to ban coal burning by heritage organisations in their localities. I hope that the Government have reflected on these amendments and agree that not only would their Bill be strengthened by incorporating them on the face of the Bill but that they would also send a message of encouragement to a much-loved sector which gives so much pleasure to millions of people, contributes enormously to the national and regional economies, and which they, the Government, have supported financially through recent difficult times. I beg to move.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I will not repeat the eloquent arguments that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, made; I pay tribute to him for the wonderful work which he does in support of the heritage steam and other sectors.

I should declare an interest as president of the Steamboat Association of Great Britain, a post which I obtained unopposed, rather like the chairmanship of the Association of Conservative Peers today. It is not very onerous. It simply involves, from time to time, as we did on Lake Windermere to celebrate its 50th anniversary, turning up with one’s little steamboat and 37 others and bringing enormous pleasure to many people in our country. As I said at an earlier stage in the consideration of this matter, it is extraordinary how people will crowd to see a steam train or a steamboat passing and how it brings smiles and pleasure to their face.

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for having repeated the arguments so that I do not need to repeat them again today. I understand that my noble friend Lord Goldsmith has a problem with how to respond to this amendment in terms of putting something on the face of the Bill. However, if we had an undertaking from my noble friend, who has been very helpful, that the Government normally have no intention of preventing the use of coal for heritage steam purposes, that would be helpful. It would be even more helpful if she would give an undertaking that it would require primary legislation to do so, so that the interests of others were met.

I will make just one point. I am not a sceptic on these matters—I have an electric car and do everything I can to help the environment. However, I find it quite difficult that, although we were on Windermere with our steamboats, the proposition is that, in future, we cannot possibly dig the coal out of the ground from Cumbria, the county where we were, but that we have to import it from Russia in order to save the planet. I do not know whether “bonkers” is a parliamentary expression, but this strikes me as absolute bonkers. It is also counterproductive, in that it makes people whom we should have on side on these matters sceptical about the application of common sense.

I am not an expert on these matters, but it is striking that these vehicles require a high calorific content of coal which is less polluting. It seems extraordinary that we have ended up in this position. Fortunately, I am not in the Government and my noble friend will be able to explain why this makes sense in the course of a reply to this debate. However, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, and I am very happy to support his amendments on both occasions. At this late hour, I do not think the House probably wants to spend a lot of time talking about steam.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Perhaps I may ask my noble friend about her reference to canal boats. I should declare an interest as I spent the weekend on a canal boat in Wales. She implied that they might be at risk. Can she be absolutely clear that they will not be at risk because they are also an important part of our tourism industry and are very important to a number of rural areas?

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

I brought up canal boats because, if they are moored in an inland waterway, they may be caught by the scope of smoke control areas brought in by local authorities in an urban area. That is why I particularly mentioned that they might be brought into scope, with reduced capacity to burn coal, if the canal boats are on an inland waterway in the smoke control area of a local authority.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I know that we are on Report, but this matter is important. The Government at a previous stage of the legislation indicated that heritage steam vehicles and, indeed, the amendment as broadly drafted would not be affected. As the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, said, on canals there are steam boats that have an important heritage. The assurance that I thought my noble friend had given was that they would not be covered. Given the assurances, if there is a loophole that would enable local authorities to include steam boats, it needs to be closed.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

This is not about propulsion but the heating system in a boat.

Environment Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 5th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Watkins of Tavistock) (CB)]

I have had one request to speak after the Minister, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for her assurances in respect of the amendment concerning steam-powered vehicles. I declare an interest as president of the Steam Boat Association of Great Britain and as the owner of a steamboat. Can the Minister explain why she is not prepared to put in the Bill the exemption for historic vehicles of the kind to which she says the Government are committed?

I was very grateful to my noble friend Lord Goldsmith for agreeing to a meeting with the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, myself and others where he gave that assurance. However, Ministers are here one day and gone the next—indeed, they can be here one afternoon and gone by evening. It is not enough, despite Pepper v Hart, just to have an assurance from the Dispatch Box. We are dealing here with a major industry. I was on a steam train on Friday, the Jacobite Steam Train that runs from Fort William to Mallaig. It was absolutely packed with people—and not all of them were tourists; there were also people from the UK. At every point along that journey where it was possible for people to gather, they did so in order to wave at the steam engine; you could see the smiles on their faces. It is not a lot to ask of the Government to make it absolutely clear that there will be an exemption for these important vehicles.

There are some 400 steamboats in the country that regularly go to events and gatherings. They support an industry and skills that would otherwise die. We are the leading makers of steam engines in the world, with people such as Roger Mallinson and others. The costs of operation are enormous, many of them supported by volunteers for heritage railways and their kind. There are hundreds of thousands of pounds invested in steam traction engines, which we see at every country fair, and in their maintenance. It is important that people have the assurance of primary legislation, especially when we see so much legislation that contains powers for Ministers under Henry VIII clauses, pretty well to do as they like, and which this House can do nothing about by tradition because we do not vote against secondary legislation. Will the Minister say why the Government are resistant to putting a clear commitment in the Bill that heritage vehicles not only are not within the scope of the Bill but are protected from the whims of any Minister?

After all, it was only a few years ago when Michael Gove announced that all coal was going to be banned in households, which has wiped out both coal merchants and the distribution system. It meant that, on Friday, when I asked the driver of the steam engine that I was on where he got his coal from, he said, “We’re having to get our coal from Russia now. That is where we get it from.” I asked, “How much coal does your steam engine burn?” and he said, “Three and a half tonnes a day, and there are two of them and there are many like them.” I find it very difficult to understand how it is protecting the environment to bring coal in on ships and then trying to find a new distribution system to those vehicles. I urge the Minister, as was put so eloquently, to recognise the cultural importance of this and not throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Baroness Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist (Con)]

My Lords, I understand the passion that I could detect in my noble friend’s voice. However, I repeat that we cannot list everything that the Bill does not apply to. I can reassure my noble friend that the Government are not doing anything that would impact on heritage vehicles, nor would they plan to do anything that would. An exemption is just not needed because these are not caught within the scope of the Bill. Again, I say that the Minister and his officials are happy to continue to engage with him and others as this guidance is developed.

Genocide: Bringing Perpetrators to Justice

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 27th May 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I have joined this debate to show my support for the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, who attack the problem of genocide with fantastic energy, and also to urge the Minister to take more notice of what is being said. I urge him to look at the report of yesterday morning’s sitting of the International Relations and Defence Committee, when the noble Lord, Lord Patten of Barnes, gave evidence in respect of China.

I find it embarrassing that, as a Government, we say that we want to be global leaders, but we leave it to Lithuania, Canada, the United States and Holland to call out the genocide that is occurring in China. I say to my noble friend that I have a suspicion that the Government would be prepared to do a bilateral trade deal with China even if it were guilty of genocide—so perhaps he will make it absolutely clear that we will never do a bilateral trade deal with any country accused of genocide.

During the passage of the Trade Bill the Government gave a commitment to set up a committee of both Houses. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred to that. Why has it not happened, and when will it happen? Last week we were able to put in place 33 committees on the nod—so why have we not been able to set up either a committee of this House or the joint committee proposed by the Government?

I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and I agree with every word he said. I hope that the Minister will not come back in this debate and repeat the same arguments about genocide being a matter for the courts, when he knows perfectly well that the perpetrators and those who support them will prevent that being achieved internationally.

Chinese Government Sanctions on UK Citizens

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 14th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, I agree totally with the noble Lord, Lord Collins, about our solidarity and our support for Members of both Houses of Parliament, and equally those beyond it, who have been sanctioned. Ironically, those who have stood up for human rights are having their rights suppressed for speaking out. We absolutely support them. On the specific areas the noble Lord raised about support being given to Members of both the House of Commons and the House of Lords, as well as those outside Parliament, the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have met with parliamentarians who have been sanctioned by the Chinese Government. Equally, I have led on direct engagement with those individuals outside Parliament, including organisations, who have been impacted. We have direct points of contact in the FCDO to offer them whatever support they require. There is active engagement and we are ready to support whatever concerns or issues of security, cyber or otherwise, they may have. On our trading relationship with China, no active trade agreement is currently being negotiated. On the specifics of the investment forum, if there are further details I can share with the noble Lord I will of course do so.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, given that the major parties in the European Parliament have said that until sanctions against their MEPs are listed they will not ratify the EU comprehensive investment agreement with China, is it to be business as usual for us while UK parliamentarians are being sanctioned for exposing genocide in Xinjiang? Will my noble friend confirm for the record that this country would never make bilateral trade agreements with any country guilty of genocide?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, first, let me assure my noble friend that, while acknowledging that we have important trade between the UK and China, we are not currently negotiating a trade agreement with China. On the issue of genocide, which has been debated in your Lordships’ House as well as the other place, we have already made the Government’s position absolutely clear: that is a determination for the courts and there is a due process to go through before that determination is made. But I can share with my noble friend the actions we have taken, notwithstanding that issue being determined or otherwise. We have acted and led on action against China, both with direct sanctions, as we have imposed recently against senior government officials in Xinjiang, as well as in multilateral fora such as the Human Rights Council, where we have seen increased support for the United Kingdom’s position and statements.

Xinjiang: Forced Labour

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 19th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend said a few moments ago that he had to be consistent with what he said before. I would like to raise with him the issue, which is being discussed now in the other place, of the determination of the crime of genocide. He has always said that that is a matter for the courts, yet Ministers and the Government are now arguing that it would be quite wrong for the High Court in this country, which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has made clear is perfectly competent, to do that. So how can it be right to say that it is a matter for a court, which my noble friend has already indicated would be subject to a veto, but not right for the High Court here to determine behaviour such as we are seeing in Xinjiang as being genocide?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is indeed correct. We have consistently talked about the importance of competent legal authorities—the courts—ruling on these issues. When it comes to international matters, the institutions that exist, as the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, said, have been frustrated because of the lack of co-operation. The challenge that we have with the amendment being discussed in the other place—that is a live debate so I am mindful of what I may be saying to ensure consistency not just across two Houses but across two departments with two different Ministers speaking at the same time—comes to the issue of the separation of powers. I think our concern comes from the High Court having the power to frustrate trade agreements and the operation of the Government’s foreign policy. I assure my noble friend that it is not about whether or not genocide has occurred in Xinjiang; it is about the crucial issue of the separation of powers, which is the key concern of the Government.

Biodiversity: Impact of Neonicotinoids

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]]

The ability to consider this emergency authorisation comes from EU legislation. It is not a case of reducing our standards after leaving the EU, since 10 EU countries including Belgium, Denmark and Spain granted emergency authorisations for neonicotinoid seed treatments used on sugar beet in 2020, just as we have done this year. Our position on these pesticides remains exactly the same; there is no divergence. We supported restrictions in 2018 and this is a narrow emergency authorisation, which has been made on the merits of the case.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a rather poor amateur beekeeper, for environmental reasons. Give that the evidence is that neonics are highly toxic to bees—5,000 to 10,000 times more than DDT—the importance of pollinators, and that we know that the residue which is lethal to bees will lie on leaves for several days, is it really sensible to even consider opening the door to the use of this lethal material? I appreciate that there is no evidence that the bee colony collapse is entirely related to this material but, given the pressures on bee populations, is it not rather irresponsible to consider making a derogation even as limited as this?

[Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park (Con) [V]]

Pollinators have an almost unimaginable and incalculable importance. They are an essential part of our environment; they play a crucial role in food production and have suffered huge decline. There have been some promising signs over the last two or three years. Nevertheless, the news for pollinators in this country is bad. We have a national pollinator strategy with a 10-year plan, which involves significant ramping up of our efforts to create habitat for pollinators, strengthening the monitoring and management of honey bee diseases and threats from invasive non-native species such as the Asian hornet. The decision we are discussing was assessed by the Health and Safety Executive, Defra scientists and the UK Expert Committee on Pesticides. They all considered that evidence, and the view was that the conditions placed were sufficient to remove the threat that noble Lords are concerned about.

British American Tobacco

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 17th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Baroness is right to raise the important issue of the harmful effects of tobacco, but let me assure her that the representation that the high commissioner made in this regard was based on the exception. The VAT demand was levied only retrospectively; in the opinion of the law ministry of Bangladesh, that does not adhere to the country’s legal principles. That point should not be lost. Therefore, we are not batting for the tobacco industry; this is about the high commissioner acting within the guidance issued.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend not think it extraordinary that opposition parties should attack our high commissioner, who is simply ensuring that the rule of law is upheld? Can he say how many people are employed by British American Tobacco and how much they pay in tax to the Exchequer?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On the second part of the question, in terms of specific numbers, I will write to my noble friend. He is right, as I have already said from the Dispatch Box, that our high commissioners do an incredible job in many sensitive and challenging areas. I refer not only to Her Excellency Alison Blake, but to all our high commissioners and ambassadors around the world. We should commend, not condemn, their efforts.

Gibraltar

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 3rd April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, Gibraltar’s position is as secure today—and will be in two years’ time, or whenever the negotiations are concluded thereafter—as it was on 23 June.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is it not obvious that the reason for the sovereignty and status of Gibraltar not being included in the letter is that it has nothing whatever to do with the European Union, and that to include it in the letter would have implied that it had? Will my noble friend, on a scale of one to 10, rate the response on Gibraltar from the European Union for friendliness and constructive engagement?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My noble friend always tempts interesting answers. We have no doubt about the position of the sovereignty of Gibraltar, which is what it was before the referendum took place and so it shall continue to be.

Russia

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, we can learn from history. We can certainly learn to engage with Russia and to engage even more closely with our allies in the United States, as I mentioned yesterday. Sometimes it seems at the moment that policy development is, in the polite phrase that I think I used, evolving and rather confusing. That makes it difficult to be able to give the noble Viscount a satisfactory answer at this particular moment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, will my noble friend take this opportunity, amid all the media froth, to emphasise the importance of the commitment which the Prime Minister obtained from President Trump to NATO, on which the security of Europe and indeed the West depends?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, as I mentioned a moment ago, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister indeed raised that very issue in the press conference. It is absolutely vital that we have that commitment, and it has been given by President Trump.

Turkey: Zaman Newspaper

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I stress that the EU plan has not yet been finalised. It was raised in the margins of the summit and indeed after the summit had formally concluded. President Tusk will, within 10 days, be concluding what the agreement looks like. However, the noble Lord makes a very valid point, whatever agreement may or may not be reached. The answer to it is that Turkey has already shown extraordinary generosity in hosting 2.6 million refugees from Syria and another 600,000 from other countries. It has already shown that it can be trusted to deliver a change of legislation whereby those refugees are able to work in Turkey, and during the next school year every Syrian child will be able to get access to education. We will hold it to any agreements.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab)]

My Lords—

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[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord refers to one of the issues that was under discussion after the summit had concluded its official session on Monday. The question of whether visa restrictions will be lifted within the Schengen area is now being considered and a proposal will be brought forward at the next European Council meeting, which I believe will be on 16 or 17 March. I repeat that that is for the Schengen area only and not for here, and therefore I suggest that it is a little premature to try to estimate how many Turks will avail themselves of it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, will my noble friend, through the Prime Minister, tell the German Chancellor and others that it is completely unacceptable and utterly bonkers to think that it is appropriate to export back to Turkey migrants who have come to Europe in return for Turkey being able to send people to this country?

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the proposal itself is welcome in that, in outline as it stands, it would break the business model enjoyed by the most evil people that I can think of beyond Daesh—the human traffickers who make people’s lives a misery by promising a life in Europe as the automatic result of getting on a leaky boat in the Mediterranean and risking their life, along with the lives of their children. I absolutely understand my noble friend’s point and I assure him that the Prime Minister will bear in mind the concerns that underlie his question.