Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 11th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I have never moved an amendment expressing regret before and I thought long and carefully before putting this one down on the Order Paper. I hope I speak for the whole House in saying how good it is to see my noble friend Lord Ahmad still on the Front Bench. He has come a long way since he was my Whip and we had a very amicable conversation yesterday, for which I am extremely grateful. I am glad that during his speech he referred on a number of occasions to the Government’s preference for a negotiated settlement. I believe that is important and, in saying so, that it will be far more helpful for the continuance of the Belfast agreement if we come to a united position with our European friends and former partners.

I believe that many things are at stake here, primarily this Government’s reputation as an upholder of international law. When we consider the serious and precarious position of the world today, underlined by those dreadful photographs in this morning’s paper, we have to realise that it is very important that we work with our international friends and neighbours and that, in our relations with them, we carry forward that spirit of unity in our nation that was so manifest only a couple of weeks ago. It is not helpful, while we continue those negotiations, to have on the statute book a Bill that is, in effect, an implied threat. I believe that there is a case for a pause.

I am not advocating, and have not advocated, that this House should go against its long custom and deny the Bill a Second Reading: we have our limitations, and we must not exceed them. But we also have a specific responsibility to uphold the constitution of our country and to maintain the rule of law nationally and internationally. We also have to remember—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My noble friend says his amendment would allow a Second Reading but in effect it wrecks the passage of the Bill by delaying it for six months. The Bill was approved by the House of Commons without amendment; does my noble friend think that this is the proper thing for this House to do?

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Yes, it is entirely proper and consistent with this House’s role to pause, which is all that we are doing, and my noble friend knows that. We had a long conversation the other day, and my noble friend tried to persuade me that he was right, but I am afraid that, much as I genuinely admire and respect him as a great parliamentarian, I do not agree with him on this occasion, and he knows that.

It is crucial to remember that we have a constitutional role. We are not transgressing that role by calling for a pause, as my regret amendment and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Chapman, do. We have discussed these things and decided on the best outcome today. Because the Official Opposition are not prepared to have a vote today on either their own amendment or mine, there will not be one, so far as I am concerned. But that does not mean that the arguments have disappeared or that, in the two weeks between now and Committee, we will not continually be thinking about how best to achieve a pause in the passage of the Bill while we have proper negotiations.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, it is very unfortunate that the noble Lord, Lord Ricketts, should tell this House that the only merit he could see in the Bill is that it would please President Putin. That is so over the top and inappropriate. Something happens to people who lost the argument on Brexit which means that sometimes they simply cannot see the wood for the trees.

I have only five minutes, unlike my noble friend Lord Cormack, who has abused the procedures of this House by tabling an amendment at Second Reading. That is a complete abuse of how we carry out Second Readings, which are meant to be for us to discuss the merits of a Bill and not, traditionally, for us to have a vote. By tabling an amendment my noble friend is able to speak for 15 minutes, while everyone else can speak for only five. If we all did that, it would completely wreck the process of Second Reading.

I say to my noble friend, who is a friend, that to use an amendment at Second Reading to try to prevent the Government delivering the programme that was supported by the other place—this Bill was brought to this House without amendment—is a complete usurpation of what this House is about. We should remember that we are not elected in this House. They are elected at the other end of the Corridor and they are accountable to their voters. One of the things about the Bill, which is fundamental, is that it is about restoring democracy to those people in Ulster who are part of our United Kingdom by restoring their ability to vote on the laws that apply to them and on the taxation that is being levied on them without their consent.

I do not for a moment want this Bill to be the way we resolve this problem with the protocol. There is all this hindsight stuff about the protocol, what was said at the time and everything else. The fact is that none of us expected the kind of bloody-mindedness we have seen in operation in Northern Ireland, which has destroyed people’s livelihoods. The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, may wave his piece of paper, but it is a duty of a Government to ensure that people living in one part of the United Kingdom are treated the same as those in other parts of the United Kingdom.

It is perfectly possible for an agreement to be reached on fair lines. The European Union is entitled to ensure that its single market is protected, just as we are entitled to ensure that our single market is protected. That is what the Government’s negotiations are about. I pray that they will be successful. We are making progress. That is why, at this very moment when we are making progress, it would be completely inappropriate for this House to seek to undermine the Government’s position.

The House might not want to listen to me, but it should listen to people such as my noble friend Lord King, who has been a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. This has been a long process. The way the protocol is being implemented threatens the Good Friday agreement and the ability of people in Northern Ireland to live in peace and carry out their wishes, which, at the moment, are to remain part of the United Kingdom, where the rule of law is determined by them.

My noble friend Lord Cormack suggested that we should listen to the views of the President of the United States. What has the President of the United States got to do with maintaining the integrity of this country? I understand that there were divisions on Brexit, but that is behind us. We have taken a decision on Brexit and for once people ought to stand up for the interests of this country and not argue for the interests of Europe when we are trying to negotiate the best deal for our own people. Talk of a spirit of unity would be far more reasonable if that spirit was shown by this House getting behind the Government to ensure that they can deliver what every citizen of the United Kingdom is entitled to: the right to determine their laws and their levels of tax. I believe the negotiations will be successful and that they are being done in good faith, but opposing this Bill and abusing our procedures is no way to deliver success for Northern Ireland or respect for this House.