Privileges and Conduct Committee

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 3rd April 2017 Lords Chamber

[The Senior Deputy Speaker (Lord McFall of Alcluith)]

My Lords, in moving that the eighth report from the Committee for Privileges and Conduct be agreed, I will speak also to the third Motion in my name on the Order Paper amending the Code of Conduct. The eighth report covers three areas. First, it proposes minor changes to the Code of Conduct and the guide to the code to provide greater clarity for Members about what needs to be declared when speaking in the House. Secondly, it proposes an amendment to the guide to provide that when the commissioner upholds a complaint alleging non-declaration of a relevant interest, she should examine whether there were other possible instances of non-declaration of that interest in the four years preceding the complaint. Finally, it recommends that Members should register in the Register of Lords’ Interests if they are on the central Register of People with Significant Control and should list the companies or organisations in question.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I do not want to detain the House. First, I very much welcome this eighth report, but reading it made my brain hurt a little, and it is still hurting. The Senior Deputy Speaker said that there are minor changes to the code. Paragraph 7 of the report focuses on the word “might” in relation to where a declaration is required. Paragraph 11 of the Code of Conduct states:

“The test of relevant interest is whether the interest might be thought by a reasonable member of the public to influence the way in which a Member of the House of Lords discharges his or her parliamentary duties”.


I have always thought that “might” was a bit vague. Paragraph 7 of the report states:

“‘Might’ implies speculation as to whether an interest is relevant. ‘Would’ implies more certainty”.


I thought: excellent—that is absolutely right. But what is proposed is that the test of a relevant interest is therefore not whether a Member’s actions in Parliament will be influenced by the interest but whether a reasonable member of the public might think that this would be the case. In other words, one “might” has been removed but another remains. I ask the Senior Deputy Speaker to explain why, if the committee felt that “might” implies speculation and “would” implies more certainty, we did not get rid of all the “mights” and replace them with “woulds”.

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

All I can say is that the challenge of the mighty noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is too much for me here today. This was undertaken by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, with the intention to make the code more consistent. In moving that, the committee accepted it at the time. I invite the House to agree the Motion, mindful of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I will go back and ensure that his comments are taken on board when we finally produce the new code.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Paragraph 7 says:

“‘Might’ implies speculation as to whether an interest is relevant. ‘Would’ implies more certainty”.


Surely in this area we need certainty, not speculation.

[Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood]

We need certainty as to when the obligation arises and the interest has to be declared. Surely, the whole object of this is to allay the public’s concern and allay a reasonable person’s suspicion that your interest might influence what you are going to say. That is what paragraph 11 currently provides for. You cannot sit quietly and not declare an interest merely because a reasonable person might, rather than necessarily would, think that it is going to affect what you are going to say. That would be an absurdly low test and completely out of harmony with all other public bodies, with the code in the House of Commons and the rest of it. I respectfully urge your Lordships to consider that, if you crossed out “might” and put “would” in the governing paragraph 11, this House would be brought into disrepute because it would be said, “They don’t have to declare an interest unless a reasonable person not might but would think that it would affect them”. Is not that an absurdly high test for when this obligation is brought into being?