Arrangement of Business
Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, as I have previously, I will make a few remarks before we start today’s consideration in Committee. Last night, the House passed the Motion in the name of my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton. It will have no effect on our proceedings today, but next week I will seek a way forward in the usual channels to deliver the view of the House. With that in mind, though, there are things we can do today.
First, we are a self-regulating House, which means that we should have some self-discipline, show some self-restraint and apply ourselves to some self-regulation. As I have said before, there are no points of order in this Chamber. Many Members of the House have been elected members of other bodies, including the other place. They have given distinguished service in those bodies but, with the greatest respect, I say to them: you are now a Member of the House of Lords, and we do things our way. We do not want the ways of operating in those places brought into our self-regulating House.
Secondly, we should remind ourselves that this is Committee, and noble Lords should address their remarks to amendments under consideration, not make long Second Reading speeches going way beyond the substance of the amendment under debate. This is set out in the Companion on page 143, at point 8.81.
Also, we do not accept interventions on interventions. That is not the House of Lords way. Please refrain from doing this. I have asked the Government Whips on the Benches to intervene to stop this if necessary. I refer any noble Lord who wants to make an intervention on another noble Lord to the Companion, specifically page 60 and point 4.29, which makes clear that interventions should be brief questions of clarification only. When pressing or withdrawing amendments, noble Lords should also be brief. This is set out in the Companion on page 143, at point 8.82.
I expect, as I believe all noble Lords do, that despite sincerely held views and differences of opinion, we will always conduct ourselves with courtesy and respect for each other, and show the public watching our debates the House of Lords in the best possible light. So, as I have said before, please refrain from doing anything that would bring that into question. Shouting across the Chamber at other noble Lords, whether you are standing or sitting, is not acceptable. The acoustics are excellent in this Chamber and the microphones are very sensitive, so noble Lords should not hold conversations in the Chamber or make remarks that they would not wish to be broadcast live. If you wish to speak to other noble Lords, please retire to the Prince’s Chamber, the Royal Gallery, the Peers’ Lobby or the Long Room, and return when your conversation has ended. They are good places to have conversations and are in regular use on other days when we sit.
Rudeness and unpleasantness are never acceptable; they are wrong and certainly not noble. After every sitting Friday’s debates on this Bill, I have noble Lords with very different views coming to my office to express their frustration with those who talk to other noble Lords around them, causing annoyance and nuisance. Please bear this in mind and have your conversations elsewhere.
This is a Private Member’s Bill, and the noble Lord in charge of the Bill is my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton. It is not the Government Minister on the Front Bench. This is not a government Bill and will not become a government Bill. The Government remain neutral on the Bill, and that position is not going to change. I have said that every time I have spoken at this Dispatch Box in consideration of this Bill.
On behalf of the whole House, I thank all the staff of the House: those on duty today, in their various roles, and those who have been working in preparation for today’s proceedings. The whole House greatly values your work, and we all thank you for all that you do.
The Government Whips’ Office has circulated the updated groupings list. My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton has, as previously, set a proposed target for today’s debate. As in previous weeks, I expect the House to rise at a convenient point around 3 pm. In line with the usual procedures and the Companion, we retain the typical flexibility to rise slightly before or slightly beyond this point to conclude the group being debated. Having considered 10 groups of amendments in four days in Committee, and in the light of the Motion passed last night, I think substantial progress should be made today in this Committee. This remains in the hands of the Committee, not mine in my role as Captain of the Gentlemen-at-Arms and Government Chief Whip, but it is my strong advice to all Members to note that.
I expect either myself or the Deputy Chief Whip, my noble friend Lady Wheeler, to come to the Dispatch Box this afternoon between 2.30 pm and 3 pm to further advise the Committee on how we will bring proceedings to a close at around 3 pm. Having made those opening remarks, which are given to assist the House, I think we should now move on to the substance of the issue before us.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
My Lords, I express my own thanks to the staff, who have done an absolutely excellent job on the Fridays. I will also express my response to what happened yesterday. We now need a process that brings us to a conclusion. I believe that we need the usual channels to come up with that process. That process needs to focus on what the main issues are and work out when we deal with them.
I got the very strong impression that it would be helpful if I indicated, on behalf of the sponsor of the Bill, my position in relation to each of those main issues. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and I thought there might be about 10 issues, some of which we have already dealt with. I would intend, if we can agree a process as quickly as possible at the beginning of next week, to include in that process me identifying my broad position in relation to those issues. In particular, I would indicate the commitments I am making in the various discussions I have had.
I indicated, for example, that I was willing to make amendments in relation to the position of those who are aged 18 to 25 and in relation to those who have been deprived of their liberty through the Court of Protection. I have indicated that we need a place for the multidisciplinary teams looking after people. I have a strong sense that people want to see those commitments in a concretised form, so I need to put those in— not by going through every single one of the 1,200 amendments but by indicating what my position is. Then we would know where we are going to get to and how we divide up the time we have. The flavour—indeed, the very strong will of the House expressed yesterday—was that we have to get through this in time.
Arrangement of Business
Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, as I have done on previous days, I will make a short statement about proceedings today before we start Committee. Everything I am about to say remains in line with how business usually would move forward, and how it has done so on the previous two days of Committee. The Government Whips’ Office distributed an updated list of groupings to noble Lords yesterday, and my noble and learned friend Falconer of Thoroton has set a target for today’s debate.
The Government remain neutral, but I highlight that we only considered three groups in the two previous days, with only one group debated on the last sitting Friday. I hope that noble Lords can make much greater progress today to ensure that a wider range of important amendments can be scrutinised in the time available. I remind noble Lords that there is significant public interest in the Bill, and there are strongly held views both for and against it. It is right that all sides undertake detailed scrutiny, but also that we seek to make much more progress.
This is Committee, so participants in the debate should address their remarks to the amendments under consideration and not make long Second Reading speeches that go way beyond the substance of the amendments being debated. This should help us make progress at Committee.
Many times before, when standing at this Dispatch Box as Government Chief Whip, and previously when standing at the opposite Dispatch Box as Opposition Chief Whip, I have stressed the importance of the Companion to assist us in our debate, and I do so again today. In particular, I refer noble Lords to page 143, point 8.81, which makes it clear that noble Lords should not
“summarise or repeat at length points made by others”,
nor “make ‘second reading’ speeches”, and that the points made should be relevant to the amendments being discussed. Furthermore, point 8.82 on page 143 says that, when withdrawing amendments, noble Lords should be brief. We also do not take interventions on interventions. If a noble Lord is intervened on, it is for brief questions of clarification, not a speech. Point 4.29 on page 60 makes that clear for all Members.
I am sure that all noble Lords will want to show the House at its best. I urge all noble Lords participating to continue to debate the issues before the House with the usual courtesy and respect that we all expect, and not to let themselves or the House down by doing anything other than that. As I did on the last sitting Friday, I remind the House that the microphones in the House are sensitive. A noble Lord should take care with conversations and remarks made in the Chamber that they would not want broadcast live. If noble Lords wish to speak to other colleagues, please do so outside the Chamber to avoid disrupting the debate. I recommend the Long Room, the Peers’ Guest Room and the Royal Gallery as ideal places to go.
Finally, to help colleagues in planning their day, I expect the House to again rise at a convenient point around 3pm. It could be slightly before or after that, but proceedings will end around that time. I will return to the House this afternoon to make a further statement to help colleagues conclude the debate.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
I thank the Chief Whip for his statement. I also express the gratitude of the whole House, especially those involved in this, for the work done by his office, in particular by Michael Bleakley, in tabling groupings in a very difficult situation; I pay tribute to him. We have approximately seven days left to get through Committee, which I believe we can do with good will. For my part, that means that I must ensure that I demonstrate and listen to the concerns of this House, which I will do.
Arrangement of Business
Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark(1 month, 2 weeks ago)
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Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, before we move on to the next business, I wish to update the House on the forward plan for the Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill. I have reflected on the first two days of Committee and discussed this with the usual channels and the Bill’s sponsor, my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton.
Noble Lords will be aware that over 1,000 amendments have been tabled and only three groups of amendments have been debated so far. It is therefore clear that the House needs additional time to scrutinise the Bill. I have always been clear that, as this Government are neutral on the Bill, any additional time will not come from government time. I also believe, given the importance of the subject and the number of colleagues who wish to participate, that this scrutiny could not take place in the Grand Committee, as some noble Lords have suggested to me. I have therefore arranged for the House to sit on eight additional Fridays in the new year, in addition to the three Fridays already announced. The Fridays will be listed in today’s Forthcoming Business.
As noble Lords are keen to be made aware of these dates, I can tell the House that those Fridays when the Bill will be considered will be: 9 January; 16 January, alongside some other PMB business; 23 January; 30 January; 6 February; 27 February, 13 March; 20 March; 27 March; and 24 April. The House will also sit on 6 March for the debate on International Women’s Day. A notice with the full list of sitting Fridays will be made available in the Printed Paper Office and the Royal Gallery. I will also email all dates to all noble Lords’ parliamentary email addresses.
As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister reiterated last week, the Government are neutral and how we proceed with this Bill is ultimately in the hands of this House. The Government are not seeking to prescribe how it will progress, but I am sure my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton will be discussing with other noble Lords how to make good use of this time.
I am conscious that colleagues may also be thinking about the time available on each sitting Friday. For the past two Fridays, I have come to the House at the start of proceedings, to set out how I hope the House will conduct itself and made clear that, in line with the Companion, I will seek to bring proceedings to a close at a convenient point around 3 pm. It is my intention to continue with this approach, but ultimately it is a decision for the House as whole, not me as Government Chief Whip.
I hope this is helpful and my door remains open to all noble Lords on this or any other matter.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
My Lords, may I, as the sponsor of the Bill, express my profound gratitude to the usual channels for making what amounts to 10 additional days available for the Bill? That means that, up to 24 April, there will be 16 days for consideration of the Bill through all its stages. May I also specifically agree with the Chief Whip that the right course now for all of us who are interested in the Bill—opponents or supporters—is to get together and agree the best way to use the remaining 12 days that we have on it?
Arrangement of Business
Debate between Lord Falconer of Thoroton and Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
The Whips’ Office will shortly distribute draft groupings of amendments to noble Lords in the usual manner. As the Government are neutral, any changes requested will simply be actioned. The sponsor, my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton, will lead on negotiating any changes, should he wish to do so. The Government will then communicate the final groupings in the usual manner to aid the Committee in having an orderly debate. This is the normal practice, including for PMBs that the Government do not support that have Committee stages.
My noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton will set a target at the end of today to aid colleagues in knowing when they might need to prepare speeches for or whether topics they know about or are interested in may be debated tomorrow. We expect the House to rise at a convenient point around 3 pm as per the usual conventions of the House. We will maintain the typical flexibility of the House and might need to rise slightly beyond or before this point to conclude groups being debated. This ensures orderly debate, and the spirit of good business management means that we do not have to undertake the complex exercise of noting down everyone in attendance to ensure that they are there when the group resumes on a subsequent day. It also aids the overall flow of debate on such an important topic. At the conclusion of the final group, at a convenient point, I will move to adjourn the House.
I ask all noble Lords to respect the usual conventions regarding speaking times in Committee and to respect all noble Lords who are speaking in the debate. The Whips, of course, will continue to monitor the debate in the usual manner. Finally, this is most important: sincere views are held on all sides regarding this Bill. Please respect that and, tomorrow and in the upcoming debates, remember courtesy and respect, and show those watching the House of Lords at its best. I trust that if we continue to respect each other, we will have a thought-provoking debate tomorrow.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)
My Lords, I echo what the Chief Whip has said in relation to the enormous amount of work that has gone into producing the Marshalled List. I also strongly echo what he has said about the temper of the debate, which must do credit to the House. Thirdly, I invite any Member of the House who wishes to degroup pursuant to the suggested groupings from the Whips’ Office today to approach me so that we can discuss an orderly way of dealing with these amendments. Finally, I have been told this morning that 900-plus amendments is the highest-ever number of amendments to a Bill, and I am wondering what conclusion I should draw from that.