Welfare Reform and Work Bill

Debate between Lord Evans of Rainow and Geraint Davies

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Graham Evans]

I think I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. This is about choices and what we spend our money on. There is no such thing as a magic money tree, and if Scottish nationalists are not happy with these measures, perhaps they will inform the Scottish people how much they will pay in tax—we never hear that from the SNP. If they do not agree with welfare reform, they should tell the House and the people of Scotland how much they will put up taxes.

The Bill continues on from the Welfare Reform Act 2012, restoring the ethos that it always pays to work to the heart of the British welfare system. The 2012 Act set in place a benefit cap.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does the hon. Gentleman accept that this debate is between growth or cuts to get down the deficit? We are taking a lot of money from the poorest people—those on tax credits and welfare—but those people spend all their money consuming things while richer people save some of it. The macroeconomic impact of the cuts—especially across the country outside London—will be deflationary, undermine growth and increase debt. Is that not economically illiterate?

[Graham Evans]

The hon. Gentleman has a fine record of representing his constituents. That argument is often made by Opposition Members, but I do not necessarily agree with it. The most important thing is for people to get into work and to get into higher paid work.

The Welfare Reform Act 2012 wanted to reduce the benefit cap to £26,000, or £500 a week. That is a net figure. If tax and national insurance are taken into consideration, the cap is actually £36,000. The Bill expands on the 2012 Act, lowering the cap, rightly, to £20,000 per household, or £23,000 in the London area. The changes restore fairness to the welfare system: they are fair for the hardworking taxpayers, who have to pay for the welfare, and ensure that work always pays. The savings from the benefit cap will be used in conjunction with other measures to fund 3 million apprenticeship places to secure the future of our young people.

This is about choices. This House takes very seriously the security and defence of our country—we are committed to spending 2% of GDP on it. I am absolutely delighted that Labour Members are also committed to that 2% target, but if they are committed to 2% of GDP for defence, and to spending on welfare and overseas aid, where will the savings be made? If they want savings to be achieved through an increase in taxes, they should please tell the British people how much more tax they will have to pay.

I sat on the Work and Pensions Committee investigation into benefit sanctions. We hear a lot of noise from Opposition Members about benefit sanctions, but the truth is that the condition has always been applied to the payment of unemployment benefits. The concept of conditionality enforced by financial sanctions dates back to the 1980s. It is nothing new, even under 13 years of a Labour Government. Conditionality remains a necessary part of the benefits system and is still one of the most effective tools for encouraging engagement with employment support programmes at the jobcentre. Some 70% of claimants say they are more likely to follow the rules if they know they risk having their benefits stopped. Sanctions are used only as a last resort and in a very small percentage of cases. Only 6% of JSA claimants and 1% of ESA claimants have faced sanctions in the past year, and the number of sanctions issued has fallen by a third.

[Geraint Davies]

In Swansea, the area that I represent, 65% of JSA claimants have been sanctioned at some point in the past two years, according to the citizens advice bureau. That is intolerable.