Property Agents: Registration

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. On the general point about whether it is wiser to act on individual parts of the problem or wait and do the whole thing in a consolidated way in one go, I think he would probably find himself in disagreement with people who are keen to move things forward in some of the areas we have been talking about. I understand what he is saying but there is a discrete area that we have been looking at in relation to leasehold reform and houses that have been sold on very long leases with ground rents. There is a case for urgent action there before we tackle the broader issue of service charges that we are looking at here.

On the specific point that the noble Lord raises about residents’ associations, that is encompassed within the consultation. I think that he will be pleased about that. There is a general catch-all anyway. If there is a particular question that is not asked which someone feels is appropriate, there is a catch-all which provides the opportunity to respond on that as well. However, we are looking forward to hearing from people on the particular issue that he raises.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, it is clear from what has already been said in this short debate that there is a crying need for the disciplines that have been adumbrated by the Minister in relation to property agents. However, that is only part of the problem. Over the past 100 years, starting with the Rent Acts immediately following the end of the First World War, various Governments have from time to time turned to the problem of housing and the relationship between landlord and tenant and come to the conclusion that it was less than equitable in the circumstances, mainly due to the law of supply and demand and social conditions at the time. We are in such a period now. There should be the widest possible review of the situation in order to bring about as much of an equitable balance between landlord and tenant as is humanly possible.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for his customary perception on the importance of looking at this whole area. He is right to say that there are many facets to this—including the social rental issue, which we are looking at separately, and on which there will be a Green Paper. I accept that action in relation to the private rented sector has been done in a somewhat piecemeal way, but it is an important part of the debate. The point has been made, but it is worth restating, that the vast majority of agents and landlords are very good, just as there are very good tenants. To put it in perspective, we are dealing with a minority, but that does not mean that it is not important. I accept what the noble Lord says about the broader issues but, believe me, within the department many considerations are bubbling away. There is an active discussion about what we do next—and there is an awful lot to do—because there is the accumulated problem of a lack of housebuilding and, in all honesty, perhaps a lack of attention on some of the issues in the private and social rented sectors.

Yorkshire: Devolution

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Monday 16th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, that thesis would be all very well were it anywhere near the truth. I refer the noble Lord to the comments of the Member for Sheffield, the honourable Clive Betts, and to those of the leader of Sheffield. He will know as well as I do that this is all about a discussion—I will not push it any further than that—about who is going to be the mayoral candidate for Sheffield. That is the reality of why some of the authorities in South Yorkshire do not like it. I would encourage them to do what other political parties will be doing: select a candidate and fight those elections in the interests of that area.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister kindly undertake not to consider devolution in relation to Wales unless it is genuine and sincere? I ask that question in light of the fact that the Wales Act of this year, giving a reserved constitution to Wales, has 197 reservations, most of which are utterly trivial, and that Clause 11 of the European withdrawal Bill has the effect, majestically and imperially, of undermining devolution completely.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Elystan-Morgan Excerpts

Tuesday 27th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

My Lords, I had the privilege for some two or three years to be a member of a committee that dealt with the likely consequences of European developments on our law. I agree with every word that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has advanced. This is a situation where narrow British chauvinism—Daily Mail chauvinism—is putting so much that is invaluable at risk. However, that is not the topic on which I want to address the House tonight.

I wish to say a few words about the constitutional situation of Wales in consequence of the Wales Act 2017. Following that legislation, the position of Wales is far less satisfactory and far less certain—and indeed, far less authoritative constitutionally—than it was previous to the legislation. That is a massive piece of irony, for the Government trumpeted it to be a considerable achievement.

I believe that the answer lies in the fact that the Government are rather reluctant performers in this connection. I have raised this matter before and I raise it again in this place. Two decisions were made in the Divisional Court: on the agricultural workers case in 2014 and the medical costs case the following year in 2015. The consequence of those two cases was quite alarming for the Government. They discovered suddenly that the range, scale and depth of devolution was entirely different from what they had conceived. There were huge areas of dubiety and it was very much more than the Government had anticipated in those days, and they reacted immediately. That is the heart, core and kernel of the problem that we now face, with a piece of very unsatisfactory legislation in the Wales Act 2017.

It is axiomatic in relation to the creation of a reserved constitution, which is what the Act set out to do, that the reservations should be fairly limited. They are limited to massive cogent matters that are so relevant to the mother Parliament, and indeed are not the proper and appropriate realm for the devolved authority—but on the other hand, all other matters, which cry out for domestic jurisdiction, should be dealt with in that particular way. In other words, there is a clear concept of where there is a watershed. That is totally lacking in this legislation.

First, the reservations are massive—there are 197 altogether. Secondly, their very nature shows that scores of them are extremely trivial. They are matters that are relatively inconsequential in a constitutional sense, such as dangerous dogs, sharp knives and axes, the organisation of charitable collections, and licensing, which seems to have been a Welsh prerogative since 1871. There are dozens of other cases that give the lie to the fact that this was a genuine attempt to give Wales a proper reserved constitution. When is a reserved constitution not a reserved constitution? When the reservations are utterly ridiculous. That is the situation here.

In addition, there is of course the point that many of the powers—this was mentioned by my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon—were never there for the British Government to consider; they were in Brussels, and have been there since 1 January 1973. They are still there.

What do we do? We must set up jointly a constitutional convention that will deal first of all with the dozens of small matters that have been reserved and examine each in detail to see whether reservation is properly justified. Furthermore, that body should make it clear that it will examine each and every item of what is now in Brussels with the presumption that that item should return not to this Parliament but to Wales. That is the only way forward—a constitutional convention of that nature. Devolution is not a matter of dainty sympathies and dilettante political practices for dreamers. Devolution is an acid test of the trusteeship that mutually exists between a mother Parliament and a devolved Parliament. It works both ways. It is the cement that keeps the United Kingdom together through these perilous, difficult and uncertain days.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am sorry to disappoint noble Lords opposite, but it will be five years. Some of the legislative adventures, many of which I very much identify with, will be brought in henceforth.

Before I turn to some of the specific comments made, I should like to make a few personal remarks. First, the Prime Minister has been very clear, and noble Lords have appreciated that, that this Queen’s Speech is about recognising and grasping opportunities that lie ahead for the United Kingdom as we negotiate withdrawal from the European Union. It is very important that we do that in a pragmatic way, bringing in many of the views that have been expressed today. Of course, this is a negotiation. What we are seeing at the moment is not necessarily how things will end up, but we cannot expect anybody in negotiations to show all their cards, or to say, “This is our bottom line”. That is clearly not in the country’s interests, the people’s interests or in the interests of anybody here. Certainly there will be challenges, but I want to assure noble Lords today that the Government are determined to work hard to achieve withdrawal from the EU on the best terms available for the United Kingdom, but at the same time to ensure enduring relationships with friends and allies in Europe. It is a new relationship at which we are working, and I believe that we can and must all work together to achieve it. I say that to all noble Lords, some of whom have perhaps indulged in a little bit of sabre rattling against all the other parties here. We cannot ignore what happened in the referendum; it would be unwise to do that—but I appreciate that within that result there are different ways of achieving the withdrawal. That is clearly what we need to work on.

Events in the past few weeks have shown that now is indeed a time for us to work together and focus on what unites rather than divides us. Many noble Lords have referred to that. As Minister for Faith, I have had the privilege over the past few weeks to speak to leaders of different faiths from across the country. I have heard and seen first-hand how communities from all sorts of different backgrounds have responded to recent terror incidents, supporting each other in the face of cruel and unspeakable terror. That was referred to by my noble friend Lady Williams, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, opposite, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, for the Liberal Democrats, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Southwark. We have seen selfless acts from countless people. We have seen charities, the voluntary sector and individuals working hard. Others have spoken about the emergency services. The noble Lord, Lord Mackenzie, spoke about the role of the police, but it is true of the other emergency services—the ambulance service and the fire service, certainly, as seen in the context of Grenfell.

When I went down to speak with faith leaders after the atrocious terrorist attack on Muslims in Finsbury Park, there were Rabbi Gluck and Rabbi Pinter of the Haredi Jewish community in Stamford Hill. They were not just there at that moment; they had been there all night, standing alongside their Muslim brothers and sisters—in particular Mohammed Kozbar and Mohammed Mahmoud of the Finsbury Park mosque. There were members of the Christian community there too. It was truly inspiring.

We have spoken today of many issues facing us as we negotiate withdrawal from the European Union and how we must work constructively with the devolved Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Indeed, that is the case. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, for his welcome. I also thank my noble friend Lord Dunlop for the massive work, as I am finding out, that he has done in Northern Ireland, and indeed, in Scotland. I will come back to Northern Ireland shortly.

On the repeal Bill, the Government have been clear that this piece of legislation establishes the mechanism through which we can ensure the decision-making powers returning from the EU are allocated within the UK in a way that works. The guiding principle behind this Bill has been, and will continue to be, that no new barriers to living and doing business within our union are created. Many noble Lords have referred to particular areas that will need attention, and I accept that. The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, referred to vulnerable children. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, referred to some of the criminal and arrest procedures, which was echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. I share their concerns and that of the noble Lord, Lord Marks. These are discussions that we need to have. No doubt there will be fierce debates— that has been indicated, certainly by the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, and others.

I take very much on board what my noble friend Lord Sherbourne said about listening and consultation. That is extremely important. There is also the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Best, about construction workers in the EU. That too we must take on board. I accept that, and in areas where there will be shortages of labour, we need to take that into account as we move forward. This guiding principle will apply to the immigration Bill, which will repeal EU rules on free movement. We will then consult on what is put in place as the UK’s policy. As my noble friend Lady Williams has said, our objective is to put in place an immigration system which is right for the UK economy and right for the country as a whole. We will be very much in listening mode as we consult on and discuss that. EU citizens have made and continue to make significant contributions to economic, cultural and social life in the United Kingdom. The Government have made clear that we want to provide as much certainty as possible to the 3 million EU citizens living in the UK and the discussion on that goes on.

The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, made points on the specific issue of asylum. Lest anybody thinks otherwise—and I can understand that this is an issue where emotions rightly run high—I say that we have done a significant amount. In 2016, the United Kingdom granted asylum or other forms of leave to over 8,000 people and it has been over 42,000 since 2010. That is not to say we cannot do more. The noble Lord has rightly focused attention on this and put a terrific case for action: we are moving towards that 480. I can confirm that we have checked and there is no bar at all for children who are mentally ill. I would like that message to go out very clearly. We are happy to continue to engage with the noble Lord, who always puts his case politely but forcefully. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, also raised some points on that and I hope this is helpful to her too.

We have taken action to help victims of domestic abuse, but we can and should go further. Many noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Goschen, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol and the noble Baroness, Lady Burt, have contributed on this, welcoming this action and raising issues. My noble friend Lady Newlove asked whether we are consulting on the scope of this. We are and are very happy to engage on it. My noble friend Lady Seccombe gave a particularly powerful speech with a historical view on the issue. I thank her for her forceful and moving contribution. It is important that we act in this area. We will be coming forward with a statutory definition of domestic violence. Questions were asked about how much we have committed to this. We have committed £100 million in this Parliament to violence against women and girls and, in addition, we are supporting 76 projects through the DCLG with a £20 million fund for domestic abuse. Some of these issues may also feature in the racial disparity audit. This has not really been touched upon, but we are going forward with it, as we committed to do before the election. There will be a bit of slippage because of the election period but we will be moving forward with it.

I will say something about the devolved Administrations and turn first to Scotland. There were notable contributions from the noble Lord, Lord Reid, and my noble friends Lord Dunlop and Lord McInnes. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Beith, I can confirm that we are taking forward the issue of the border lands area. It is very much in process and is being led by the Secretary of State for Scotland, who is the port of call for more details. We hope and believe that will help with the Scottish economy, which my noble friend Lord Dunlop said, quite rightly, was central to progress. As was said, it appears that Nicola Sturgeon has been listening. The Government welcome that—as did all noble Lords who spoke on this issue—and the fact that she has responded and the referendum will at least be postponed. That will make relations easier in terms of discussing Brexit with Scotland, which of course we want to do. We are very happy to engage but we do not want the megaphone diplomacy which there sometimes can be. I hope we can go forward and engage meaningfully.

I turn next to Wales. We had a very powerful contribution from the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, who has great distinction in both Wales and Northern Ireland. I thank him for that. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, was uncharacteristically somewhat unfair in his caricature of the Wales Act 2017. It is worth noting that this was the subject of a legislative consent Motion in Cardiff. I think that it was passed with the support of all the political parties there—albeit that some in Plaid Cymru did not vote for it, but some of them did, and all the other political parties did vote for it. There were only two votes in this Chamber on the Wales Act 2017, one of which was won by a decisive majority by the Government and the other of which was a tied vote. I am very happy to give way to the noble Lord.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

I absolve the noble Lord of all faults. I have on many occasions said kind things about him. I shall not embarrass him further in case I damage his distinguished career.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I think the noble Lord already has—but I thank him, as always, for his courtesy. We can perhaps disagree on some of the interpretation of that issue.

The noble Baroness, Lady Humphreys, asked questions about the tolls. We are working on how we intend to deliver that, and on matters in relation to the main line north and south as well. I will cover in a letter the more detailed point on S4C funding as I do not have that to hand.

I will turn swiftly to Northern Ireland. Many noble Lords rightly focused on the importance of delivering on power sharing. I can confirm that the Government are very much committed to the Assembly. That is central to everything that we are doing in terms of policy in Northern Ireland, along with other parties here. I thank many noble Lords for the kind and accurate things they said about the Secretary of State, who is working in Belfast on the power-sharing position as we speak.

I understand that views will differ on the agreement with the DUP, but I should say first of all that it does not cover any of the social conservative issues that people understandably would raise if it did. However, it does not. I think in practice that is helping with the position in Northern Ireland. It is worth noting that Gerry Adams said, “Well done, Arlene”—so perhaps that is an indication that it is helping rather than otherwise. I hope we can all agree that power sharing is important. It is central to what happens in Northern Ireland.

The other issue I would like to cover on Northern Ireland—I cannot claim to be in any way an expert, but I was there last week and I will be there again tomorrow—is that you do not have to be there long to see that it is very different from England, Scotland and Wales. Different considerations apply and we have to recognise that. There is a legacy in all sorts of ways. I noted that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said that we now have peace, which is essentially true. However, there are fragilities there in terms of many aspects of life in Northern Ireland, as he will know. Now we have a generation of people who have known nothing but peace. We have to work to ensure that that continues to be the case, and that before too long we will have two generations who have known nothing but peace.

I thank those noble Lords who have contributed on Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Reid, speaks with massive experience and is rightly listened to with great respect. Along with other noble Lords here— for example, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy—he is remembered with fondness in Northern Ireland for what he has contributed. They obviously speak with great experience.

I also listened with great interest to my noble friend Lord Empey, the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, my noble friend Lord Trimble, the noble Lord, Lord Hay, my noble friend Lord Dunlop and many others, including the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, who spoke with great passion about how we must deliver for Northern Ireland, the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, the noble Lord, Lord Rana, and many others, including the noble Lord, Lord Laird. It is a pivotal moment and I repeat that the Government are truly committed to power sharing and to the Assembly. It is the way forward, as is ensuring that we have travel to work across the border.

I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who spoke about the importance of confidence and supply and the way that is delivered and advertised; I listened to that with great interest.

Many points were raised today on the situation of our housing market. We remain committed to the White Paper—many noble Lords raised that issue. Much or probably most of that can be delivered without legislation. However, as I say, at the moment we are talking about only two of the five years, and obviously, when legislation is needed, we will look at that. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, who I know speaks with great authority on housing, for her welcome of much of what is in the White Paper. We are very happy to work across the aisle, as it were, with other political parties to ensure that we deliver not just on affordable homes but also on social housing, which has for understandable reasons been the focus of our attention recently.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, put many important points, which I will cover in the letter, on housing, land banking, and so on. Those were addressed in the housing White Paper and are very much still in play. As noble Lords appreciate, we will deliver on the tenant fees Bill.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about guaranteeing the position of people who are subject to domestic abuse and therefore need that guarantee. That is still on the table, as we discussed previously, so if she wants another chat about how we will do that, I will be happy to meet her.

On Grenfell Tower, briefly, this was another dreadful situation. Once again, I pay tribute to all those people who helped there—certainly the emergency services, voluntary organisations, individuals on the ground, faith organisations and people from all sorts of backgrounds. Yes, there was a slow start there in dealing with what was pretty much, thank goodness, an unprecedented situation. Now we are garnering resources and moving forward with the testing, and doing what is necessary on a national basis, because this demands a national response. I am grateful for the way that noble Lords have dealt with this rather than the more emotive way others have, characterising it as murder, which was grossly irresponsible. I thank noble Lords and I am grateful that noble Lords in this House have treated it very differently.

I will quickly deal with some other issues if noble Lords indulge me—I am moving through this. The independent advocate is important—the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend Lady Newlove referred to it.

On the courts Bill, I will deal with the detailed points made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and others, as I will on prisons legislation. I thank noble Lords who have given a welcome to the role of David Lidington, who regards prison reform as important; it is on his radar. Much of this—not all of it—can be delivered without legislation. However, I take very seriously the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, who speaks with massive experience. I am sure that this debate will be picked up by the Lord Chancellor anyway, but I will make sure that he is aware of what was said; points were made by the noble Lords, Lord Dholakia and Lord German, the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bristol, the noble Lord, Lord Marks, and other noble Lords.

I will deal with some individual points, some of which were a little bit left-field. However, I will make sure that they are picked up. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, talked about the content filter and extreme pornography; I will certainly make sure that we get a response on that.

My noble friend Lord Empey spoke about House of Lords reform. It was very courageous of him to mention that in the body of this Chamber. I think that the Lord Speaker is taking that forward, but I will make sure that my noble friend gets a response.

My noble friend Lord Goschen spoke about motorbike crime. My noble friends Lord McColl and Lady Manzoor raised issues concerning modern slavery. I know that my noble friend Lady Williams will be very happy to meet them to discuss how that issue can be taken forward.

The noble Baroness, Lady Flather, along with others, mentioned the Casey review, which is still very much a live issue.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, made a very powerful speech, if I may say so. Again, I shall be very happy to meet her, along with my noble friend Lady Williams. I think that there are issues worthy of being looked at, and I say, “Well done on getting the Daily Mail on side”.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, asked a specific question, but I cannot remember what it was.