Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I made it quite clear that I was putting the amendment in context. The noble Countess intervenes on many noble Lords on many speeches in a way that actually delays the House rather than helps it.

As suggested in my opening remarks, this is not an attack on freedom of speech of the press. I had the great pleasure of working with Hugh Cudlipp, who was editor of the Daily Mirror and responsible for that great popular newspaper, which I read avidly when growing up in the 1950s and 1960s. I was also very fond of John Junor and his hard-hitting column in the Sunday Express. I admired William Rees-Mogg for his editorial attacking the prosecution of Mick Jagger for drug offences under the headline, “Who breaks a butterfly on a wheel?” And, of course, I remember the great crusade on behalf of the Thalidomide victims by Harry Evans of the Sunday Times. I am so pleased that Harry has been at our side in this battle to see Leveson implemented.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

I am 30 seconds off.

[Lord Elton]

I wanted to back up my noble friend Lady Mar, whose interventions are usually absolutely on the ball—and she is quite right this time, too.

[Lord McNally]

I am very interested in that—perhaps we can debate procedure in this House another time. I do not think I am out of order, and I am within 30 seconds of finishing a very long debate, in which a number of people have asserted some rather hurtful things about those of us who have spoken about the freedom of the press.

I went into that little bit of history, because I do not think that in 30 years’ time Paul Dacre or Kelvin MacKenzie will be spoken of in the same breath as Cudlipp or Evans, or even Junor or Rees-Mogg. The Daily Mail is said to be the Prime Minister’s favourite newspaper, yet it is the embodiment of the nasty party that she once so rightly condemned. I think Matt Hancock will regret becoming Paul Dacre’s poodle, and I think the old print media will regret not protecting themselves within the strong walls of the royal charter, as the long shadow of court judgments and the growing power of the ICO come into play. On behalf of the victims of press criminality and malpractice, I express my admiration for the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, for ensuring that their voice has not gone unheard.

The Government will have their business, but I urge Ministers to accept this amendment as being in keeping with the arguments, which they themselves have used during the passage of the Bill, that major regulation should not be in the hands of politicians and regulators should be independent of both government and proprietors if real press freedom is to be safeguarded. In order, I beg to move.

Prisons: Suicide

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Monday 25th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I know it is too long but it is worth getting on the record that the problems of mental health within the prison population remain and we need a more holistic approach to solving them.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, my noble friend referred to prisoners identified as being at risk of suicide. Can he tell us how many of those there are currently, how many are identified as having mental health problems of any sort, and how many staff there are who are qualified to deal with their mental health illnesses while they are in prison?

[Lord McNally]

On the latter issue I will have to write to the noble Lord. On any one day in the Prison Service it is estimated that there are about 1,500 prisoners who are under care and supervision out of concern for the danger of self-harm or worse. I will have to write to the noble Lord about the actual number with mental health issues.

Prisons: New Prisons

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I think it was possible to have prison farms in the past. My noble friend is right about both the sustainability of such regimes and the benefit to prisoners. I am not sure that present circumstances would allow that, but I recently visited a prison in the north-west that had opened up a section of the land to develop an under-glass market garden. That was being very well used by the prisoners, who had gained great benefit both from the training that they received there and the personal satisfaction that such work gave.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, my noble friend acknowledged the value of rehabilitation. Will he acknowledge the even greater value of people being prevented from getting into crime and say what plans there are to start skewing the budget away from punishment and towards prevention?

[Lord McNally]

The Government’s whole policy is to try to divert people from crime. We are looking to develop many more mentoring schemes to enable people who are vulnerable to be helped with their addictions and problems in a way that will divert them from crime.

Leveson Inquiry

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Thursday 29th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, I come back to the involvement of statute. I was 12 years old when the first of the succession of reports on the misconduct of the press was published. I was not old enough to take much interest in it, but I have taken an increasing level of interest in the successive ones. Every report has concluded that the press has undertaken to behave better. I was greatly impressed by the proposals from my noble friends Lord Hunt and Lord Black but it comes down to the fact that if their working is dependent on the press fulfilling its undertakings to behave differently, then I hope my noble friend and his right honourable friend will look at the record before deciding how much weight to put on those undertakings.

[Lord McNally]

My noble friend makes a very sound point, and it is extremely good that it comes from someone on the Conservative Benches with such long experience of these matters.

Legal Aid

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, we will eventually discuss the various scopes in the legal aid Bill. The Government are satisfied with the scopes they have set in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill and believe that they cover the most vulnerable in family and domestic law. But I freely admit that we are going to have some interesting debates on the matter. I hope that that helps the noble Lord. The debate has yet to come to this House.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, the noble Lord has referred on a number of occasions to the “target time”. Can he give us the definition of that?

[Lord McNally]

The target time is, I believe, two weeks for the settlement of accounts.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Monday 3rd October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, continues his search for the silver bullet that is going to shoot down Lords reform. The fact is that we are approaching the matter of war powers rather more seriously. Of course there is the matter of the power of the House of Commons, and we are considering carefully how such legislation would be couched. When the reformed House of Lords comes into being, as has been made clear by the Cunningham committee, the conventions between the two Houses will be up for re-examination but the conventions of the two Houses will still be in place. The Government have made it quite clear that it will be the House of Lords—sorry, the House of Commons, that will have the—[Laughter.] War powers are a rather serious matter. If the noble Lord would address it as such, instead of as one of his regular “catch them” questions, we could well debate it.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, my noble friend is mistaken in thinking that this is a flippant approach simply because it comes from somebody with a known record of trying to sabotage reform. Surely reform is intended to be democratic and representative. This House will not be representative unless it can represent those who elect it in all respects. This is the most important respect that is likely to come before this House. How can it be justified as a democratic reform if the House is to be silenced on this matter? If it is not to be silenced on the matter, the problem posed by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, persists. Deadlock between the Houses would not only lead to uncertainty in the future but sap the morale of those who were eventually engaged in any conflict.

[Lord McNally]

My noble friend’s last point is exactly why the Government are being very careful in thinking about just how these matters should be put into law and how Parliament should discuss them. However, the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, is dealt with by the CRAG Act. Treaties will be debated in both Houses and can be voted on by both Houses, but the CRAG Act makes it quite clear that the view of the House of Commons would prevail in such matters. That is one precedent that we could look at but, as I say, let us wait.

Prisons: HM Young Offender Institution Feltham

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I am not sure that there is overcrowding, unless one is talking about the ability to provide every prisoner with a single cell. That was one of the recommendations that could not be accepted, simply because the provision of single-cell accommodation would put such pressure on capacity that it could not be delivered. Both staff training and assessment before arranging cell sharing are much more thorough than before. As I said, we hope that this will avoid the kind of tragedy that the Mubarek murder revealed.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, the report revealed the most woeful state of the paper trail, as it is called, of the documents that are supposed to go with prisoners but very often do not—many of the documents did not arrive. The report said that an important contributory factor related to the Learmont recommendation, made in 1995, that a central electronic database for prisoner security information should be established. Has that been fully established and, if so, with what results?

[Lord McNally]

I am not sure whether that has been fully established, but I will write to my noble friend on the specifics of whether the 1995 recommendations have been fully implemented. Sometimes with these reports, there is a gap between full implementation and actual practicality and resources. However, I know that, in terms of assessing prisoners for cell sharing, and indeed in dealing with prisoners during their time in custody, there has been much improved sharing of information among the various agencies. In the host prison, from the governor downwards, there is now as full as possible an assessment of the prisoner’s susceptibilities that would make it better or not for them to be cell sharers.

Public Bodies Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Monday 7th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton]

The noble Lord said that not enough attention was paid to the youth offender teams. I specifically asked the Government to pay more attention to the youth offender teams, which do not want the Government to go on with what they are now proposing.

[Lord McNally]

The noble Lord gives me the opinion of the youth offender teams. It is always a bit dubious when noble Lords claim to know the opinion of a section under inquiry. In fact, we are also in contact with youth offender teams, but I take the point that he mentioned them.

I am trying to see whether there is anything that I should particularly answer beyond these points. As I said at the beginning, it is a cheap shot to say that bureaucracies cannot run things. The term bureaucracy is easily slung around. I take the point that we should concentrate on structures not dogma. The issue is not dogma but whether, within the constraints that we face, we can organise this more effectively. I take on board the criticisms and we are listening.

If the noble Lord, Lord Warner, wishes to test the opinion of the House, that is his right to do so. He is a former Minister and there are a number of others around. One of the problems as well as pleasures of being a Lords Minister is that, when you are in a position like this, you cannot make policy on your feet. You can take it back to colleagues and you can listen. I have listened and I will take the issue back to colleagues, if the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is in a mood to take that in the spirit that it is offered. I cannot promise beyond that, as he knows. As many have said, gathered together in the House today is an enormous level of ministerial, local government, social service and charitable experience that any Government willing to listen should listen to. I will take this away and am also happy to talk further with the noble Lord on the matter, but that is as far as I can go today, having set out where we are trying to go and why.

Youth Justice Board

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I am sorry to hear that barb at the end. The job of the Youth Justice Board was to establish an effective, local system of operating youth justice, which is now carried out by the youth offending teams. Therefore, this extra layer of administration and control is not required. That success means that youth justice is now under local control and is carried out by youth offending teams. We at the Ministry of Justice will carry out an arm’s-length supervisory role, but youth justice is a local responsibility that will be carried out at local level.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, to complete the reply to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, could the Minister kindly tell us which Minister within the department will be responsible for children within the criminal justice system?

[Lord McNally]

I could do so only when the necessary legislation is passed.

Prisons: In-cell Sanitation

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, does NOMS provide additional manpower to deploy when the electronic system is not working in order to mitigate the results?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I understand that that is the process. If there is any failure or any increase in demand, the prison authorities redeploy guards so that the electronic system can be used and so that when, occasionally, the system breaks down, it can be operated manually.

House of Lords: Working Practices

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Monday 12th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I will not commit myself to that. At the end of the year there will be a draft Bill which will itself go to legislative scrutiny. There is no rushing of fences on this. There is some serious work to be done. A very good agenda has been set up. A standing committee to look at practices and procedures may come out of—

[Lord Elton]

While my noble friend is on procedure, perhaps we may revert for a moment to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I presume that the Leader’s Group will produce a report, which will be put to the House with a Motion that it is approved and will be open to amendment. It will include an enormous number of proposals, which could well elicit a large number of amendments. I hope that my noble friend will take on board the need to have perhaps a special procedure or at least a substantial time for us to deal with it.

[Lord McNally]

I think so, but we should first look at the report. Certainly, we will not do what the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, implied; namely, to say, “This is it: take it or leave it”. We hope that the committee will bring forward a range of suggestions which will be open to the House, but it will remain in this House’s power to decide what it wants out of that report.

As I said, this Hansard report will produce a good first working document for the group of the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad. Also, those such as the Hansard Society and other groups who take an interest in these matters will see an open invitation to submit their evidence, as will the parties and individual Members of the House. I hope that it may even consider the suggestion of my noble friend Lord Lucas and open up its workings to the new technologies so that we can get ideas through in that way. I also noted him saying that the Benches behind me should relearn the art of rebellion. I have to say that some of us never thought he had lost the knack for that.

I finish on a thought that comes from my noble friend Lord Campbell of Alloway. He gave us a political warning, and it is one I can feel as a parliamentarian: do not think that you can smooth all the rough edges out of our parliamentary workings. If you smooth all the rough edges away, the House will stop doing its job. Sometimes it has to be awkward and uncomfortable, and indeed sometimes we have to stay late, to make it do its job. I have never wanted to see this House be a kind of rubber stamp for the Executive of the day. My noble friend has put this forward in the real spirit of his job, not as a government Minister but as the Leader of the House—in the spirit of looking after the interests of this House. In this debate he has combined the Churchillian order of “Action this day” with the Maoist invocation to let a thousand flowers bloom.

Elections: Fraudulent Registration

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Monday 14th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

Such questions are always extremely difficult to answer because we never know what is going on at No. 11 Downing Street, as the noble Lord knows well. One of the commitments of successive Governments has always been that they supply sufficient budget to enable our democracy to function properly. I cannot imagine that we will move from that situation.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, mentioned 10 per cent of the population dropping off the register in Northern Ireland. How many of those 10 per cent should not have been there in the first place?

[Lord McNally]

I am not sure. We all know all the jokes about Northern Ireland voting. This Government take fraudulent voting very seriously. Wherever in the country there is fraud, we will prosecute with the firmest intention of getting convictions.

Children: Criminal Responsibility

Debate between Lord Elton and Lord McNally

Thursday 10th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I certainly agree to that. I also take the noble Earl’s point about the family. One has only to look at a very few cases to find that these children come from extremely damaged backgrounds. We shall look at making sure that their parents take responsibility for their actions. There is a very clear relationship between damaged children committing crimes and an appalling family background.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the last of the lengthy catalogue of recommendations from the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, to reinforce the previous Administration’s legacy towards the early intervention to which he referred, was the least controversial, the most attractive and likely to be the most effective and least expensive? Will he add to that a dimension of support for the voluntary agencies, which are by far the most effective deliverers of these services?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the simple answer is yes. Whether the strategy of the previous Administration was working may be answered by figures released this morning that show a decrease of 20.7 per cent in the number of young first offenders. That has been achieved by avoiding knee-jerk reaction, using the voluntary sector and giving wide discretion. The direction of travel which we inherited is one which we intend to follow.