Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord will agree that not all their sales would be of prohibited items.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, surely that is not an answer. We want to stop the whole thing.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we have tried—

Offensive Weapons Bill

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank noble Lords who have spoken to these amendments, which are about the use of short custodial sentences and minimum custodial sentences. I have reflected on the concerns raised in Committee by noble Lords but I remain of the view that there is—as noble Lords have reiterated today—a place for custodial sentences as part of the range of penalties available to the court for the offences in the Bill. The noble Lords, Lord Hogan-Howe and Lord Kennedy, articulated that.

In Committee, I stressed the significant harm and injuries that corrosive products can cause if they are misused as a weapon to attack someone. We are talking about a serious offence, one for which the use of custody should be available to the courts in certain circumstances. I was very grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who is not in his place today, when he made the point in Committee that custodial sentences have a place when dealing with specific types of offenders. He referenced cases where a retailer has repeatedly sold a corrosive product to under-18s and may have already been subject to a community sentence. That is one set of circumstances; there may be others where the offending is so serious that only a custodial penalty should be imposed.

In the earlier debate the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, was concerned that a range of different sentencing options is available to the courts. I want to stress that by providing custody as a maximum penalty, we are providing the courts with a range of sentencing options from custody through to a fine, or both. This means, to speak to the points made by my noble friend Lord Elton, the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, and the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, that the courts will also have the option to impose a community sentence. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, the application of these sentences has to be meaningful, but they can be imposed if they are the most appropriate sentence, taking into account all the circumstances of the offender and the offence. As I said in Committee, there is also a requirement under the Criminal Justice Act 2003 that the court has to be satisfied that the offence is so serious that only a custodial sentence can be justified. We can have every confidence that the courts will sentence offenders appropriately, based on the circumstances of the offender and the offence.

[Lord Elton]

Can my noble friend assist me? I ask forgiveness for my ignorance but as I read subsection (7), it says:

“A person guilty of an offence … on summary conviction in England and Wales”,


is liable to be imprisoned,

“for a term not exceeding 51 weeks, to a fine or to both”.

There is no reference to any other treatment or sentence. My noble friend said that there was access to that; I would be grateful if she could tell me how it died.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not know whether my noble friend was in Committee, but when the amendment on having just a community sentence was moved, we discussed the fact that when there is the possibility of a custodial sentence, it is open to the courts to impose that or a lesser sentence such as a community sentence, which can have the conditions that the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend referred to earlier. It is open to the courts to have some flexibility over what the penalty should be, as it relates to the particular offence that has been committed. We also discussed in Committee that under the Criminal Justice Act 2003, the court has to be satisfied that the offence is so serious that only a custodial sentence can be justified. I hope and think that we can have confidence that the courts will sentence offenders appropriately, based on the circumstances of both the offence and the offender.

[Lord Elton]

If I may trouble my noble friend once more, as I read it, they are prohibited from applying a sentence of more than the time specified in the Act. My objection is to exactly that: the short duration. If there has to be custody, it needs to be long enough for the person to be assessed, treated and known properly. Six months does not do it.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right about the maximum sentence, but alights on an important aspect of someone’s rehabilitation, which is not just about the custodial sentence—it is about all the other interventions that go with it, both while that person is in custody and upon release.

The other difficulty with the amendments is the damage that they do in undermining the steps we have taken in the Bill to ensure consistency, regarding the maximum penalty available to the courts when dealing with offences relating to the sale to a person under 18 of corrosive products on one hand, and of a knife or bladed article on the other. When the Bill was considered in Committee in the Commons, there was strong support from the Opposition for a consistent approach to be taken.

I am well aware of concerns about individual retail staff or delivery drivers being prosecuted, and the impact that would have on them. However, the experience from other age-restricted products is that in many cases it would be the company selling the product or arranging its delivery that would be prosecuted. There could be occasions when it might be a shop worker who was prosecuted, but it is more likely that it will be the company operating the store, because it will be responsible for ensuring that procedures and training are in place to avoid commission of the offence. Where it is the company that is prosecuted, the sentence is likely to be a fine rather than a custodial or community sentence; but if an individual is prosecuted, the full range of penalties should be available.

Policing: Priorities

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Home Office has no intention of telling the police what they should stop doing because, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, there will be different priorities in different areas. It is up to local police forces to decide what those are. As for the other acknowledgement by the Home Office, which is that the police are facing new demands and have faced increasing calls upon their time over the last year or so, both the Policing Minister and the Home Secretary fully recognise this and are working with the Treasury to get a better settlement.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, the Minister must recognise that there is a connection between police numbers and police effectiveness. In view of the considerable reductions of the recent past, is there any prospect of the numbers being increased in the near future?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I both agree and disagree with my noble friend: numbers in and of themselves do not lead directly to effectiveness. However, where those numbers are stretched to the point that it impacts on effectiveness, both the Home Secretary and the Policing Minister have absolutely recognised this. There is not necessarily a direct correlation between the two—of course, the most effective police force, Durham, is also the most efficient.

Asylum Applications

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 15th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not think I or the House would disagree with the noble Lord in the examples that he cites, particularly those in Pakistan of certain religious groups being persecuted under blasphemy laws. Sadly, the laws in Pakistan are quite different from the laws here; unpalatable though we might find them, they are the laws there. Nevertheless, each application to our asylum system should be dealt with in terms of the persecution that people might face.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, how long will it take from rollout for the whole of the relevant force of people to receive the training? What oversight will there be to make sure that it has been understood and implemented?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think I outlined that process just now to my noble friend Lady Berridge. We are expecting to roll it out in 2019. With regard to quality assurance, the audits are going to be carried out by an operational security unit for both the quality of the decision and the application of the policy.

Children: Covert Human Intelligence Sources

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 13th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I absolutely dispute what the noble Lord has said because, far from weakening the safeguards, we have strengthened them by ensuring that the appropriate adult is someone who is professionally qualified to take on the role. The UK ensures that the principles of the convention are considered and realised through the approach taken, both in the legislation and in other measures, to ensure that children’s rights and interests are safeguarded.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell me how the current legislation affects the keeping by local authorities of lists of children at risk of non-accidental injury and their passing of that information about those individuals to other local authorities when those children move into their areas of responsibility?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I am sure my noble friend will know, where there are safeguarding issues around children, information is shared, and certainly if the child moves from one local authority area to another. As the IPC has pointed out, the duty of care in the case of these children is absolutely paramount.

Police Forces: Financial Stability

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 12th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I always take what the noble Lord says seriously, particularly in relation to child social care. I have not got a particular answer about specialist child protection officers, but I will certainly take that back to the department. In terms of a gap in knowledge at the centre, this autonomy for the police was a deliberate move towards much more local accountability—something that had been called for for a long time. We expect PCCs to have that local knowledge and put forward their plans in light of it.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, it is good to hear about the 5,000 extra police, but I wonder whether the Government have a particular dimension of policing in mind when they arrive at the figures they think are appropriate. When one asks Government whether what we have is appropriate, since the number is smaller than we used to have, the answer is that equipment and deployment will solve the problems. It does not solve the problem of public disorder, where we need boots on the ground—and we need them in quantity. Will the Minister ask her colleagues to ask the police forces of this country to cast their minds back over the last 20 years and consider whether they could contain the public disorder that occurred over those 20 years with the equipment they have now, bearing in mind that communications have changed and they are faced with disorder that is co-ordinated by means of WhatsApp, which cannot be penetrated by the police?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a very good point about the changing face of crime in the light of technology. Of course, we have the recent rise in knife crime. In terms of whether the police have the equipment they need, or whether we have enough boots on the ground to tackle crime, it is up to local police forces to decide the number of police they need in relation to the demands they face and the crime patterns in their area. For some police, gang violence is a particular problem; in other areas, it might be knife crime; and where I live in London, in Camden, moped crime is a particular problem. Resource need is something that needs to be locally determined.

Muslims: Population Growth and Sharia Law

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 30th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I get the noble Baroness’s point.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, the trouble with your Lordships’ treatment of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, is that you will not listen when he actually talks sense. There are a number of points which he raises which your Lordships should have the courage to examine, rather than simply denigrate his approach to them. One such point is the implication for democratic trends in this society, which is equally a subject of interest, but in a totally different context, in Northern Ireland. It is not a subject that should be entirely brushed under the carpet until things change.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I certainly was not denigrating the noble Lord’s points, save to say that they were not helpful in the context of anything other than singling out one particular faith in society. I think that my noble friend meant demographic rather than democratic. There is certainly demographic change in this country, but it is all to the good because, if we had purely the indigenous population, we would be looking at population decline and therefore some major problems in meeting employment need.

Immigration Centre Detainees: Pay

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 4th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend kindly tell us, if the volunteers did not volunteer, would the work be done and, if so, by whom?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, if the volunteers did not volunteer, there would be no problem. The fact is that they want to do this work, and therefore work is provided for them.

Child Refugees

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 27th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, the debates that we have from time to time on this issue focus almost exclusively on local authorities, suggesting that they are the only and the best providers. Is that the case? If so, what is the arrangement by which other providers can link into the system in order to increase the number of places available?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am glad that my noble friend asked that question, because one thing that the Government have been very keen to promote is the community sponsorship scheme, which the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury has taken part in, taking in Syrian families in Lambeth Palace. In fact, in my own local authority in Trafford we also have a community sponsorship scheme. I never let the time pass up without encouraging noble Lords to tell of any community sponsors they know who might be willing to take families.

Criminal Justice: Anonymity

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, not only will the Government give enough time to the amendments, but I am sure that, given the prominence of the issue both in Parliament and the media, the debate will be substantial and will benefit from all the expertise in your Lordships’ House.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend think it is entirely fair—though it may be expedient in the early stages—that while anonymity is not granted to the accused it is granted to the accuser? Is there not a point at which that becomes unfair and should be revisited according to what the motivation of the accuser may be?

Immigration

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 12th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I can give that assurance. As my right honourable friend the Home Secretary made clear, it will take time and we are quite clear about that.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, coming back to the question of students, I hope that the Government have taken on board the fact that students are quite different from other immigrants. When they go back, they bring great credit—and great profit—to this country by using the standards that we set in engineering and other disciplines and commissioning work from firms in this country, as well as establishing a network of good will around the world.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally agree with my noble friend, and that is why we want not only to train but also to retain some of the brightest and best students from around the world so that they can contribute to our economy.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 18th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, the Companion, at paragraph 8.137, sets down the Standing Orders for how we conduct these debates. We are on Report, not in Committee.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend, but I was very clear that the noble Lord was asking a question of clarification.

Flooding: Cumbria

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 9th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I will join the noble Lord in that. I am sure that Radio Cumbria, just like all the other members of the community, really pulled together over the last few days to help in quite a devastated area. Like every other person who could play their part, I am sure Radio Cumbria has added to mitigating some of the agony of the people who live there. We are looking at a potential scheme to reduce the risk of flooding in Kendal but it is at an early stage of planning. Within the six-year programme, the proposed Kendal scheme is scheduled for 2020-21. We are considering with other funding partners how we can bring this scheme forward to improve protection for 440 properties, at a predicted cost of £3.95 million.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, these flood events are becoming increasingly frequent and all differ in some respect. Can my noble friend tell your Lordships what arrangements exist for the emergency services and local authorities involved in each event to exchange information, so that guidance on best practice and the preparatory arrangements for these events can be made on a national scale?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a very important point. The rescue and recovery operations that are in place can be effective only if all the agencies pull together.

Housing: London

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think it is up to local authorities to decide what types of tenure they provide for the people who live in their localities.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, I understand that developers have a very large amount of buildable-on land held, as it were, in a land bank and awaiting changes in the economic climate. What consideration is given by the Government to bringing pressure to bear and getting this land released so that the price of housing goes down?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the problem of land banking and not building on land that has permission is very serious and, yes, the Government are putting on pressure to get those starts moving.

Housing: Brownfield Sites

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 3rd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I have just outlined that the brownfield fund should help—but housing zones should also help. Those are zones on brownfield land on which housing is especially suitable to be developed. Having the register will make that information easily accessible, and the fund will help to clear some of the difficult sites. By the same token of the land values being low, the construction is quite often cheaper.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, much is written about the tendency of private development firms to buy and bank greenfield sites and not to develop them. Is there a similar danger in the development of brownfield sites and, if so, can the Government take steps to avoid it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government have made it clear that, in terms of affordable housing and the right-to-buy market, they expect land that is developed to be built on within three years—and, if it is not, it will go back to the HCA, which will itself develop it.

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Elton and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 8th July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I hope I can clarify things to my noble friend’s satisfaction. As we know, cybercrime has a global reach; a perpetrator sitting in their bedroom in London could be hacking into a computer system anywhere in the world. The new offence acknowledges this reality and captures serious damage caused in any country. The clause goes on to define a reference to “country” as including a reference to a “territory” and to,

“(i) any place in, or part or region of, a country or territory;

(ii) the territorial sea adjacent to a country or territory”.

It is the last of these three points that my noble friend’s amendment seeks to address, and she raises a very interesting point.

The Territorial Sea Act 1987 specifies that the breadth of the territorial sea adjacent to the UK is 12 nautical miles. I can therefore reassure my noble friend that this form of words does not mean, as one might usually expect, the sea very close to the coastline, but captures the full 12 nautical miles of territorial water surrounding the UK.

However, the position will not be the same for all countries. Although the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea sets 12 nautical miles as a maximum for territorial waters, some states may have chosen a smaller limit. The boundary line for a country’s territorial waters will be governed by its own laws and by international agreements and conventions. The non-specific language in the Bill reflects this variation. Where the damage is caused in the UK the territorial sea adjacent to the country will be the 12 nautical miles around the UK. Where the damage is in another country we would expect the court to take into account the laws of the country in question, together with any relevant international conventions, such as the UN convention, and any other agreements, in determining the territorial sea’s breadth. I hope that my noble friend has found this explanation helpful and that she will agree to withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

Can my noble friend say whether territorial waters and a territorial sea adjacent to a country are normally co-terminous? My noble friend referred to some countries defining a territorial sea as extending less than 12 nautical miles, but she did not say whether it was less than the territorial waters of the country. I hope that is not too arcane.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend Lord Bourne for very helpfully clarifying the issue over mineral rights et cetera. If a crime took place on an oil rig, windmill or anything out to sea, it would be a matter for whichever country had a flag on it. I hope that clarifies the matter in respect of anything that might be in any sea anywhere in the world.

On whether the 12-nautical mile radius should still stand, I do not think that that is a question for today. The fact is that it does stand.

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, I was hoping to protract the glory of this small question, but I think that I had better sit down in order to wrestle with my machine that is bleeping.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Saved by the bell, my Lords.