Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Dunlop and Lord Higgins

Monday 29th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

I am not sure I will be able to satisfy the noble and learned Lord on that point because I have learned not to deal in hypotheticals or to speculate about what might happen in five years’ time. As I say, I think the conditions that pertain then will be favourable to reaching an agreement and I am confident that we will reach an agreement at that time.

On the amendments relating to the fiscal framework being approved by Parliament, the Government do not believe it would be appropriate to subject the framework as a whole to approval by both Houses. Many aspects of the fiscal framework are administrative, not legislative, and the need to update these aspects requires a degree of flexibility. There is also no precedent for these non-legislative aspects to require parliamentary approval; for example, the block grant adjustment mechanism arising from the power to devolve under the Scotland Act 2012 was not subject to separate parliamentary approval.

[Lord Higgins]

This is a matter of enormous importance. Would it not be absurd if the central part—the heart—of the Bill were to go forward with the House of Commons not having had any opportunity at all to debate it? It is inconceivable that that should be right. It is really important that the other place should have a chance to express a view.

[Lord Dunlop]

My noble friend is of course quite right that the fiscal framework should receive detailed scrutiny from this Parliament. I know that this House will play a full part and I anticipate that the House of Commons will do the same. What the House is being asked to do today is to scrutinise and approve one of the most significant aspects of the framework: the capital and resource borrowing powers. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, raised this issue and we will have an opportunity to debate it in detail in the next group of amendments. Dr Angus Armstrong of NIESR told the Lords Economic Affairs Committee that the question of borrowing is,

“the most important question in the whole debate”.

In due course, this Parliament will also be asked to approve changes to tax legislation as a result of the fiscal framework and the Smith commission. That legislation will be scrutinised by Parliament in the usual way. Likewise, the legislation required in Westminster to establish the Scottish Fiscal Commission on a permanent footing by means of an order under the Scotland Act will receive scrutiny in both Houses before it is approved. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord McFall, the Government have committed to report annually to Parliament on the operation of the framework. I know that these reports will receive full scrutiny.

At the end of the day, the fiscal framework has been agreed between the two Governments. To introduce a further process at this stage would not only delay the transfer of powers, it would mean that the UK Government—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dunlop]

That is a matter for the House of Commons; it is not a matter for the House of Lords. The House of Commons has decided to pass the Bill through its stages, in full knowledge of what the state of play was on the fiscal framework.

[Lord Higgins]

It had absolutely no knowledge of what the state of play was on the fiscal framework and it ought to have an opportunity to debate it.

[Lord Dunlop]

That really is a matter for the House of Commons, and not for this House of Lords. That House has to decide how it wants to deal with these matters and has done so.

Scotland’s Fiscal Framework

Debate between Lord Dunlop and Lord Higgins

Wednesday 24th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

Obviously discussions are going on between the UK Government and the Welsh Government about the fiscal arrangements for Wales. I am sure, as this deal has been successfully concluded, that they will be successfully concluded as well.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, the Statement concludes by saying that the fiscal framework should be subject to full scrutiny. How is that to be achieved in your Lordships’ House when the Scotland Bill has already reached Report stage and we will be operating under the restrictions that we always do on Report and at Third Reading? Should those restrictions not be removed, given the situation that we are now in? Secondly, the perpetuation of the Barnett formula means that the injustice between England and Scotland is going to be perpetuated as well. That cannot possibly be regarded as fair.

Scotland Bill: Fiscal Framework

Debate between Lord Dunlop and Lord Higgins

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

On the noble Lord’s first point, in any negotiation there is always a balance to be struck between keeping the public informed and providing the private space to get the deal done. Our priority has been to do all we can to reach an agreement, rather than to adopt public positions that in some way make it more difficult to reach agreement. With regard to independent scrutiny, I very much agree with the noble Lord, and I am sure that that will be part of any agreement we reach.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

Will my noble friend guarantee that we will not proceed with further consideration of the Scotland Bill until we have a clear idea about the financial framework and can judge whether it is fair? It would be quite monstrous, given the history of this affair so far, if we were not to have adequate time to debate the matter.

[Lord Dunlop]

Obviously, this is a negotiation between two parties, and I cannot give a guarantee on an outcome to a specific timetable. What I can say is that both Governments understand the pressing parliamentary timetables, both here and in Holyrood, and our desire and commitment to see full scrutiny of this fiscal framework.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Lord Dunlop and Lord Higgins

Tuesday 23rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

That the amendments for the Report stage be marshalled and considered in the following order:

Clauses 1 to 12, Clauses 34 to 41, Schedule 2, Clauses 42 to 64, Clauses 13 to 18, Schedule 1, Clauses 19 to 33, Clauses 65 to 70, Title.

[Lord Higgins (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Minister has not given any explanation as to why the clauses of the Bill should be taken in that particular order. More particularly, in the earlier exchanges, he declined—I think that would be the right way to put it—to give a guarantee that, before we proceed to debate amendments on Report, the fiscal framework will be before the House in such a way that we can appraise the extent to which it is fair between the various parts of the United Kingdom.

The Minister will be well aware that the suggestion was made in the debate yesterday that, if we do go straight to Report, we should alter the way in which proceedings go ahead on that occasion so that we could at least speak more than once, and perhaps one should give further consideration to the situation. We will not, of course, have the opportunity to debate any clauses stand part on Report.

The way in which this matter has been proceeded with is quite intolerable. Parliament is being prevented from holding the Government to account in the proper way, and we are not being given the information on which we are bound to rely in deciding whether this is a sensible measure or not. It has gone through the House of Commons with no scrutiny at all of the fiscal framework, as I understand it, and we have had no discussion on the details of the framework in this House. It is really dreadful, given the magnitude of what is at stake here, in terms of the effect on individual constituencies and constituents, that we should not have a proper debate on this issue.

I hope that the Government can come forward with a clear assurance that we are not going ahead. I understand all the political implications with Scotland and so on, but the fact of the matter is that we are not being allowed to carry out our duty properly. I believe that this is an appalling state of affairs and has to be put right.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

I thank my noble friend, and will make three points in response. First, the purpose of the Motion that I have just moved is to ensure that we take Report in the same order that we took Committee. Secondly, to address the central point that he makes, we have done that precisely to meet the intent of what he is seeking: to give more time to reach agreement on the fiscal framework and to ensure that, when we come to the second day of Report on 29 February, we have an opportunity to scrutinise that framework. Thirdly, it was suggested yesterday that the rules of Committee should apply to Report, and I know that is being discussed through the usual channels.