Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Act 2014 (Consequential Modification) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Wallace of Tankerness

Wednesday 26th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, this is one of these rather interesting areas in which I seem to be called on to explain the inscrutable workings of the Scottish Government, which I am unfortunately rather ill equipped to do. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, raised a number of issues regarding the lengthy delay. To be frank, I do not have an adequate answer to give him on behalf of the Scottish Government.

I have before me a statement which says that the Scottish Government have undertaken detailed consideration and consultation. Clearly it has taken a very long time. Exactly why that has been the case remains to be seen. Indeed, through a series of questions asked by a number of Members of the Scottish Parliament, it is quite evident that the Scottish Government were very optimistic that this would be delivered—that the answer would be arriving now—and that has simply not happened.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, asked who is to blame for this. I would not use the term “blame”, but I suggest that the Scottish Government have responsibility in that regard. When we learned that there needed to be an amendment of the legislation which was reserved, we of course acted expeditiously to move that forward and will do so. Today is a measure of how quickly we have been able to move. I have not had sight of the details of the Scottish Government’s proposals. While I could speculate that they may look rather like the English and Welsh version—I would only be speculating in saying that—I anticipate that this will come through the Scottish Parliament in due course. I am afraid that I cannot speak on its behalf, however, so I am unable to answer that question.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, raised the issue, echoed by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, of those individuals who find themselves outwith the territorial jurisdiction of Scotland—in Wales or in England. That is a correction which we can take forward. As to the mechanism whereby that will be undertaken, I have to admit to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Davidson, that I do not have the detail on that. If it is equivalent to the English or Welsh version, I can certainly have that information placed in the Library. If it is some variation on that, we will have to wait until the Scottish Government determine what it should look like.

As to the amount of money not gathered as a consequence of the length of delay, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, is correct in his figures. The estimate is that around £1 million is available to be gathered in this way, but that of course depends on the details of the Scottish Government’s regulation, which I do not have. I am not sure whether that is an accurate reflection of the money or whether it is just speculation on our part. It may be that, once we have more detail on this, I can secure that information and place it in the Library. Of course, the avid Members of the Scottish Parliament may be better equipped to interrogate the Scottish Government further on these issues, about which I am afraid I have remarkably little information to satisfy noble Lords.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

Perhaps I might ask the Minister something that hopefully will be within his responsibilities. The Explanatory Memorandum says that it has been,

“prepared by the Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland”.

Paragraph 6.1 states:

“On a practical level, there need to be enforcement measures to ensure that the victim surcharge is paid. One such measure is deduction of sums of money from the relevant offender’s benefit payments”.


Given that that was written by the Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland, can one reasonably infer that there are other ways in which the other enforcement measures could have been done—and, indeed, that they could have been used against people who do not have benefits and might be very wealthy? Therefore, given that that is in an Explanatory Memorandum from the UK Government, can the Minister explain why an interim order was not brought forward before there was a need for this particular one?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Again, the noble and learned Lord asks a question to which I am afraid I do not have an adequate answer in terms of an interim approach to this. Scotland has two Governments, and of course we are active in the area where we can control the elements within our remit. The Scottish Government are responsible for those matters which they must determine and drive forward. As a consequence of that, I am less able to answer the question.

However, I do have an answer to the question of whether the rates of subtraction from benefits are a potential risk to the individual’s ability to pay, or indeed to struggle to pay. The DWP has set out very clear guidelines to avoid any suggestion that the deductions themselves are in any way harmful to the individual. If these guidelines are followed in the Scottish example, I anticipate that this would therefore not be an issue that would occur in the Scottish Government’s proposals. Again, I am speculating on what they will be putting in there; I do not have that detail.

As I move this forward and welcome the support of the House this evening, I suspect that that the Members of the Scottish Parliament may well be better equipped to continue to prod the Scottish Government in order to elicit the responses which I have been unable to deliver on their behalf. On that basis, I hope that I can move forward and commend this order to the House.

Scottish Government: Discussions

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Wallace of Tankerness

Thursday 2nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, this time last year, during the final stages of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill, never a day seemed to go by when we did not discuss common UK frameworks. Can the Minister perhaps update us on what is happening? It seems to have gone quiet. How will he ensure that in areas of shared responsibility there is parity of esteem and there will not be direction from Westminster?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble and learned Lord is correct. There needs to be parity of esteem in all these discussions. The intergovernmental review should look at the functioning of the frameworks. The existing joint ministerial committees can be improved, and I suspect that the improvements will emerge from the intergovernmental review.

Scotland: European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Wallace of Tankerness

Thursday 14th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. This House debated the vital issues of devolution over a number of hours and days during the passage of the EU withdrawal Bill. I pay tribute to noble Lords on all sides of the House for interrogating the Government on the issues with care and a wealth of knowledge. This House agreed a package of amendments to be sent back to the other place for their careful consideration. It is, frankly, remarkable that the Government provided less than 20 minutes for the elected House to debate the proposals in front of them on issues as fundamental to the union as devolution and the future of the Northern Irish border.

When this House gave the Bill its Third Reading, we expressed our regret at the absence of a legislative consent Motion from the Scottish Parliament and our hope that the UK Government would convene cross-party talks with the Welsh and Scottish Governments to look at ways forward. We are informed that requests for such talks, including by the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, have been declined. This is, at the very least, disappointing.

The Government did not give enough thought to devolution in their drafting of the Bill, as in many other areas, and brought forward a flawed piece of legislation. The Government’s own Ministers conceded this point. A great deal of time and debate went into trying to address problems which are in part of the Government’s own making. It is unreasonable, at the next stage of that process, to claim that there is no time left for the other place to have a full debate on the new Clause 11 that it was promised.

We have repeatedly asked the Government to think more carefully about the devolution settlements, and the place they have in upholding our union and shaping the future of the Brexit negotiations. Are the Government actively considering Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition’s calls for the Joint Ministerial Committee to be put on a statutory footing, and have the minutes of its meetings published? We have a situation and there has to be a discussion, agreement and consensus, and I hope that the Minister can provide some hope in that quarter.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I am not sure whether to thank him for the name check, which was a fairly broad interpretation of a somewhat more complex legal point. However, clearly, the Statement was made in the other place in response to the failure to have an adequate debate on the Lords amendments and following on, too, from the stunt of the SNP walking out yesterday. However, anyone with even a limited knowledge of Scottish politics knows that the SNP is a grand master at cranking up the grievance machine. Can the Minister therefore say why the Government gave them a gift-wrapped grievance to exploit?

We must also ask about the role of the Secretary of State for Scotland. Let us recall that he promised the House of Commons that amendments to Clause 11—which was, by that stage, completely discredited—would be tabled in the House of Commons on Report. That did not happen. I think there was some forbearance, when the Bill came to this House, because we took the view that, if time was needed to get these amendments right, then time should be taken. Indeed, we had good debates in Committee and on Report and even some further debate at Third Reading. But that was done on the expectation that Scotland’s elected Members, not just the SNP Members but those from the Conservative Party, Labour Party and Liberal Democrats—and indeed Welsh and Northern Ireland Members, because it affects their constituents too—would have a proper and adequate opportunity to look at these amendments. They are a total recasting of the devolved situation post Brexit and the Government must really answer why they did not arrange the timetable in such a way as to allow that to happen. We are entitled to ask whether the Secretary of State for Scotland made representations for the timetable to be arranged in such a way for there to be adequate debate. If he did not, he was derelict in his duty and, if he did, I ask the Minister what conclusions can we draw about the weight he carries within government in as much as these representations were overlooked?

If one goes to the substance of the Statement, it says that:

“While the devolution settlements did not predict EU exit, they did explicitly provide that, in situations of disagreement, the United Kingdom Parliament may be required to legislate without the consent of the devolved legislatures”.


It is of course the case that, legally, Section 28(7) of the Scotland Act 1998,

“does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United Kingdom to make laws for Scotland”.

That is a statement of the sovereignty of the United Kingdom Parliament. Section 28(8) goes on to state:

“But it is recognised that the Parliament of the United Kingdom will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish Parliament”.


As the Supreme Court found in the Miller case, it is a convention and, therefore, it is a perfectly legal position that the United Kingdom Parliament can legislate. Can the Minister indicate—it may be that he has not had time to look back at exactly what Lord Sewel said—whether Lord Sewel explicitly said, as was claimed in the Statement, that in some way this would be used as a form of dispute or disagreement resolution? I would quite like to know where this explicit reference to that came from.

We know that this particular Bill is a forerunner to agreeing frameworks. The principles of the frameworks for the United Kingdom were agreed by all parties at the Joint Ministerial Committee on EU Negotiations back in October. Can the Minister indicate what steps have been taken to put some meat on to the frame of these frameworks? Has the position that has been taken by the Scottish Government—indeed the Scottish Parliament—in any way hampered these discussions in recent weeks, both at official level and at ministerial level?

For my final point I just return to the issue of dispute resolution because, if we are going down the road towards UK frameworks, it is important that we have a better form of dispute resolution than taking the sledgehammer to what has happened in the meantime. We want to know what thought has been given by the United Kingdom Government, in discussion with the devolved Administrations, to ensure that there is far better dispute resolution than we have had to date.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for beginning what I think is a very necessary discussion on the functioning of the Sewel convention. If I may—to go in reverse order—I will address the question of the frameworks themselves and their functionality, because I think this is where we need to focus our attention. These have been the subject of extensive engagement at an official level. If we add up the number of hours that have now been spent with officials examining each of those frameworks, we are in excess of 100 hours of meetings specifically to look at the functioning of the frameworks themselves. A phrase that comes to mind is: “officials are smiling on it”, which we always widely interpret as things are going quite well—but officials smiling is not the same as Ministers themselves signing it off. One challenge that we have often had is that what appeared to be agreement at the level of the officials—where examination on the detail of the frameworks themselves appeared to be reaching consensus and agreement—did not always match and meet the next step of making sure that Ministers themselves were able to sign that off. That has been one of the greater challenges that we have experienced because, again, this is without precedent. We are trying to establish how we can repatriate laws that we have not had functional control over, and trying to do so within a devolved framework, which of course did not exist when those laws were first moved from the United Kingdom Parliament across to Brussels.

In terms of the events in the other place, time was given, but it might be argued that time was misspent. A great deal of time was spent on a number of elements in discussion, thereby precluding serious engagement on these specific aspects. There needs to be some soul-searching across a number of parties as to how it ended up that way. I do not think that we in this place—or indeed those in the other place—can legitimately say that there has not been substantive engagement on the devolved clauses, Clauses 11 and 15, on many different occasions, both here and through the various forums that exist for officials and for Ministers to examine them. There has been, I suspect, on this clause alone, more correspondence, engagement and meetings to try to bring about the necessary agreement. Clearly, we were able to secure that agreement with the Welsh Administration but not with the Scottish Administration.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, raised the point that my right honourable friend in the other place said that he would bring agreed amendments on Report, but the key part is “agreed”. In order to achieve that, the two sides had to reach agreement. It was not for want of effort that that agreement was not found. The reality is very simple: if you are unwilling to accept that there needs to be some form of concessions to seek that agreement, then you are simply not going to get it. At each stage when we thought that we had moved far enough to change the structure of the clause in such a way that we would be able to get support, we found that the goalposts had shifted slightly further away from us. Clearly, we were able to deliver the support of the Welsh Government, but we were never able to secure the support of the Scottish Government. Even though the officials—and indeed certain Ministers in the Scottish Government—believed that we had made enough progress, unfortunately, when it came to the final sign-off, that was simply not the case.

I take the point from the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, about the JMC and how it shall work. There are examinations now about how we shall create structures that will necessarily address the changing environment and changing reality. How that will evolve is yet to be determined, but I take on board the points that he has made; it is useful for us to be part of that engagement. There will need to be cross-party engagement on the functionality of what, in effect, is a new constitutional arrangement—one that we are still writing. That is part of the challenge that we are living through right now; we have not yet signed off the final chapter of what this will look like. It is therefore quite difficult, in one respect, to determine exactly how we, as the Government, shall address that—my word, that is very unusual handwriting on the note just passed to me; I will read and speak to it momentarily, but not right now.

To conclude my remarks on this particular point, the important thing is that the show is not over. We are trying, and continue to try, to deliver the outcome that is right, but there needs to be an acceptance of agreement, which has to be based upon at least some acceptance of a concession. At the moment, the Scottish Government’s view on this is so didactic, specific and unmoving that, in essence, we are placed in the invidious position right now of taking a journey that we did not set out to take but which is facilitated within the law. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, has said, the Sewel convention does allow for this particular approach under not normal circumstances. We do not want to be taking this journey at all, but we are and we must, because the key thing is that, on day one after Brexit, the statute book must work, not just here in London but in Edinburgh, in Belfast and in Cardiff.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord for his words of advice, but Scots are renowned for telling it like it is, and I assure him that I moderated my language a great deal when I chose those words. What I saw yesterday was scandalous, and I think anyone who saw it would agree. It was a dereliction of a democratic role. That level of theatrics may play its part—I do not doubt that—but there are other things that should be done in the other place.

On qualified majority voting, in the United Kingdom we have a degree of asymmetry. Attempts were made by the other party to address this through regional assemblies within England, but that was simply not supported by the public will. It is not easy to accept in such a small island archipelago such as we are, where one nation is so dominant in terms of population, that we should somehow simply divide the land into four parts and pretend that each is equal and should be considered as such. That would not be easily done. I do not think that the Government today are ruling anything out, but we have to be realistic—something else the Scots are renowned for.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

My Lords, if no one else is rising to speak—we still have 12 minutes—I will ask a question. The Minister said in response to the questions I raised that time was taken up by Divisions, but can he confirm as a matter of fact that the Government could have arranged the timetable, given that it happened over two days, so that the issues on what became Clause 15 were taken first and were not truncated in the way they were? It is also part of the Government’s own timetable that time for Divisions is taken account of. Can the Minister confirm that it was a matter of the Government’s own judgment that they did not put this item in a place where it could be properly debated?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for that point. I can confirm that the Government could have adjusted it, had they been minded to do so. However, the problem was that they did not anticipate what happened as the votes began to dominate and consume the speaking time. Part of the dilemma that was faced was therefore that by the time this was recognised, the time itself had elapsed. I do not doubt that yesterday, had the Scottish National Party not left the building and had lodged their request for a debate, there would have been a debate on that very point to allow each of these issues to be aired adequately.

Northern Ireland: Supreme Court Ruling

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Wallace of Tankerness

Thursday 7th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Baroness. I wish I could give more than warm words at this time. We have to consider the judgment very carefully; it is 140 pages long and came out only this morning. However, the early analysis suggests that the technicality that the noble Baroness and I have both touched upon will in due course be addressed by another case, and that technicality will be eliminated.

The issue is therefore how this matter shall be addressed in Northern Ireland. Clearly, as I have said on a number of occasions on a number of matters, we would prefer a devolved Administration—a devolved Executive—to take these issues forward. None the less, the last time that the Assembly in Northern Ireland debated this issue on a cross-party basis—on each occasion regarding each of the elements that were part of the judgment today: the fatal foetal abnormalities, rape and incest—the Assembly itself did not endorse progress on these matters. It is important that the issue is addressed with some urgency but also with some care, because there are a number of wide implications that we must take on board. That is why at this stage we will consider the judgment very carefully to ensure that we understand exactly what it is saying, so that we can appreciate how to take the next steps.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, this is obviously a very charged and sensitive issue. As the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, have said, the judgment will require a lot of detailed consideration. None the less, it is clear that there was a majority in the Supreme Court who, but for the fact that there was no legal standing on the part of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, would have found a declaration of incompatibility. Given that under paragraph 3(c) of Schedule 2 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998 human rights and the observance and implementation of our international obligations, including human rights obligations, are an excepted matter and therefore fall within the responsibility of the Westminster Parliament, and given that both the relevant United Nations committee and now a majority in the Supreme Court have said that the current law of abortion in Northern Ireland is lacking with specific regard to Article 8 of the European convention, is there not some responsibility on the UK Government to address this matter with a degree of urgency, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mance, encouraged?

I certainly agree with those who have said that it would be far better if this were dealt with by the Northern Ireland Assembly. Indeed, my colleague in the Alliance Party of Northern Ireland, David Ford, had already brought in a Bill before Stormont was suspended with regard to addressing fatal foetal abnormality in relation to abortion. While that is obviously the best route to go down, as long as the Northern Ireland Assembly is not functioning there is within the current devolved settlement a responsibility on the UK Government to do something.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble and learned Lord. He is absolutely right that the judgment itself, even on a cursory reading, does not allow us to escape the conclusions that have been drawn simply because there is a technical matter there. The obligation for us right now is to ensure that we are able to move forward on this matter. The challenge, however, is that we must ensure clarity from the parties and communities in Northern Ireland as to how. We do not wish to be seen as, in essence, trying to interfere from over the water deliberately to change what are clearly very deeply held views by a number of parties. None the less, the finding itself will need to be considered very carefully and we must do that in order to be clear that we are upholding our obligations, something that the Government will continue to do.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Wallace of Tankerness

Committee: 10th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

What the Minister is saying is encouraging. For the sake of argument, let us take fishing. Have any of these meetings between UK officials and officials from the devolved Administrations involved members of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation? Stakeholders obviously have a practical view on where some common arrangements are useful and where they are not.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I wish I could answer that question in the affirmative, but the answer is no. Before each meeting the devolved Administrations, with the UK Government, have engaged in direct consultation with stakeholders. However, the stakeholders have not been inside the room. None the less, what they bring to the table is very much understood. I develop upon these parts because, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, pointed out, it is important that when we consider the question of agriculture there is no suggestion that, although agriculture itself is one of the headings, everything in agriculture will remain part of that. To some degree, what noble Lords had in their in-boxes, which was simply entitled “Agricultural funding”, was a little unhelpful. Underneath that rests each of the areas where there is expected to be a necessary common framework, and indeed a whole range of areas where there would not need to be a common framework because it would be fully devolved from the get-go. To some degree, there can be a result of some misunderstanding contained in that approach. Again, that is why it is imperative that we examine every single aspect when we have these deep dives, which are ongoing; they have not finished yet.

Brexit: Devolved Administrations

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Wallace of Tankerness

Thursday 25th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, very much for his intervention. The respect agenda is at the heart of the answer to that question. The deep dives are vital for each of the participants to recognise that the solution needs a common framework to address the particular challenges. There will be tensions—I do not doubt they will exist—where there is disagreement, where one of the Administrations say, “Actually, in this particular area, we believe this and the other one disagrees with it”.

Part of the bigger challenge is the movement of rules coming back from the EU, where there are—as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, pointed out—111 laws that directly affect Scotland. For Northern Ireland, it is more than 140; for Wales, it is around 60. Of course, because of the devolved settlements, the rules are different; so again, the point is to try to find areas of common consensus. In truth, representatives of the various individuals who are part of the stakeholder community will each have to be able to defend their points to the stakeholders, to explain to them why they are arguing one way or another. Those stakeholder communities must also lend their acceptance to this particular point, because upon the hearing the outcome of these discussions, they cannot—and should not—rise up in arms and say that it is an absolute travesty and a scandal. They should be satisfied that this is the best and right way of doing things. The important thing to emphasise is that this is not in any way an attempt by the UK Government to demand certain concessions from the devolved Administrations. That is not the ambition at all.

On the wider question of the institutional arrangements whereby the various parties come together and meet, there have been challenges. There is no point in pretending otherwise. I have a very helpful list somewhere. Noble Lords have asked very thorough questions so I have many pieces of paper; I am now hunting for the right one. We had a hiatus between February and October 2017 for one particular reason: the election. That slowed things down quite considerably. The important thing to stress is that for a very long period, the JMC’s arrangement had been all but moribund: it had not been a functional part of the engagement between the devolved Administrations and the UK Government. Recognising that that was no longer fit for purpose, the UK Government have sought to expand the number of forums by which we have agreement under the JMC, as well as recognising that the frequency of those must therefore be driven by the necessity of the particular issues. That is why what would have been the traditional ongoing European legislation—which was the most important forum for the focused issues before the devolved Administrations—is, if anything, the quieter forum. The negotiations forum is now absolutely critical, as is trying to make sure that there are opportunities at those meetings for a free and frank discussion. There are, and I can assure noble Lords that the discussions are very free and very frank.

There are challenges. I am reminded of the words of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie. At the outset, one of the challenges in this area was that it was very hard to reconcile the demands of the different Administrations because they were not bridgeable in simple terms. So, the notion and the paper put forward by the Scottish Government could not be easily reconciled with the reality of what the UK Government believed they had to deliver after the referendum. That caused a lot of the political tensions. It is very hard to meet on common ground when one party is on one side of the chasm and one is on the other; you end up falling to the bottom like Wiley Coyote, with your arms flailing in the air. We were trying to avoid that outcome. It is bridge building that gets us across the chasm, I hope.

We need to give some consideration to the situation in Northern Ireland. Many noble Lords have rightly mentioned that there is a void in Northern Ireland. We cannot pretend otherwise. I can assure noble Lords that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is actively pursuing facilitating the dialogue required to develop a functioning Executive. On more than one occasion, I have said from this Dispatch Box that Northern Ireland is ill served without an Executive. Although the civil service there can do a great deal to help in many different areas, they cannot do everything. That is why it is important to recognise again the need for a realistic and functional dialogue. Those talks are ongoing; we hope that those around the table will recognise the importance of securing agreement on this occasion but we recognise the challenges that we face.

On the question—again, raised by a number of noble Lords—of the agreement reached by the UK Government and the EU before Christmas, which touched on Northern Ireland and the border question, it is important to recognise that that is but one step toward a larger agreement between the UK and Northern Ireland. Without that agreement, there will be significant challenges for both sides. That is why, in this instance, the ongoing negotiations again seek to address the challenges. One would hope that through that, the negotiations will deliver the Northern Ireland question as part of a bigger settlement. Those negotiations are ongoing. I believe—this is where it becomes important—that we often find ourselves, particularly when following certain newspapers, caught up in an almost daily crisis of one sort or another, with the narrative driven forward in that fashion. However, if we step back and think about it, just before Christmas the UK Government managed to deliver on what they said they wished to do: secure agreement on these three key areas, to allow negotiations to begin shortly thereafter. They achieved that. From some of the reporting, you would have thought that they had failed, but they did not. They moved things forward in that fashion.

The time ahead will not be straightforward. I realise that we will have plenty of opportunities to discuss further the questions that underlie the repeal Bill. I am sure that many of the contributions made today will help inform the Government as they begin to think about how best to approach the investigations into the repeal Bill and its functionality. But we will have to resolve those questions here in such a fashion that we can return those amended clauses to the House of Commons to allow them to deliver upon that. I believe that we will make a difference and, indeed, do what this House always does: seek to make things better. I think the Government will appreciate the work done here in that area.

We have to recognise that the union is perhaps something larger than just the moment of Brexit and the discussions that surround it. A number of noble Lords have pointed out today that immediately after the referendum on Brexit, there was a great fear that our union would itself begin to experience some of the challenges but in truth, there has been a degree of resilience. As we witnessed through the, shall we say, unexpected general election last year, the parties that had perhaps anticipated doing better, certainly in Scotland, did not do so on the basis of what they offered the people. That should be a salutary reminder to anybody who believes that they have the people behind them: it is always worth looking over your shoulder, just to make sure they are still there. You cannot take the people for granted in this regard. The result of that election was a useful reminder to us all to focus on what the people want, whether that be the people of Scotland, the people of Wales or, I hope soon, the people of Northern Ireland.

We in this House must recognise that we have a role to play in ensuring that our union works, and works well. That is why I am indebted to my noble friend Lord McInnes for bringing before us today an opportunity to discuss and explore these issues. It is timely because next week, we will be knee deep in thorough discussions on the questions before us regarding repeal. As I try to answer the questions, I am aware how useful that will be to my colleagues in facilitating, I hope, the right sort of dialogue as we go forward. But I am also aware that there is heavy lifting to be done and we have not yet resolved these issues. On the question of Clause 11 as it affects the devolution settlement, we need to be able to bring before your Lordships a workable amendment that can deliver exactly what it says on the tin—and when we tell your Lordships that we have it, we are telling you that other people in Edinburgh, Wales and, through consultation, Northern Ireland agree that this is the way forward. That should allow us to make that necessary step.

When I began my remarks, I pointed out that in some respects we have been through a revolution, as only Britain can do, in the way that our powers have moved. But we have done so in a piecemeal fashion; again, a number of noble Lords made this point. We need now to refocus on trying to ensure that we are not making stumbling progress but have a clear objective: to make sure that the devolved Administrations fit into a sensible and workable government structure for the United Kingdom. People have to recognise that whether they are in Edinburgh, Wales or Northern Ireland, they have two Governments, not just one. It is important to stress that. Again, we need to be better at explaining to people what the Governments are doing and what their actual responsibilities are. Quite often there is sheer confusion on these points.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

I generally agree with the point the Minister is making but, as part of that better integration, will he respond to the suggestion I made, based on the Canadian experience, that Northern Ireland officials and Scottish and Welsh Ministers might also be involved at the table in the forthcoming phase 2 negotiations?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, makes an important point. As a Member of the European Parliament many years ago—no, last year; time is just slipping through my fingers here—I am very conscious that the discussion was always about who sits at the top table and therefore represents the United Kingdom. I was always of the view that the table in London, where all the devolved Administrations argued these things through, was as important as the seat at that top table. Determining the UK position in this instance will be exactly the same. We must deliver a UK position which is part of the respect agenda and delivers for the peoples of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland that which is right, workable and appropriate. I can assure your Lordships that those will be dingdong discussions around the tables in London, where the heaviest lifting will be done. As to the point the noble and learned Lord makes, to be frank I do not know the answer, but the important table is the one where we bring together all these individuals to make sure that we are positioned to deliver on behalf of the people we represent.

I am conscious, again, that I am perhaps overstaying my welcome. On this day of Robert Burns, we are conscious that we celebrate that across the globe. So perhaps I might close with some words of Burns, which I thought were slightly appropriate:

“O let us not, like snarling curs,

In wrangling be divided,

Till, slap! come in an unco loun,

And wi' a rung decide it!

Be Britain still to Britain true,

Amang ourselves united;

For never but by British hands

Maun British wrangs be righted!”.

Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Wallace of Tankerness

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord may well say that but I stress again that the important thing is that the salient points raised by noble Lords today are considered in all seriousness by the programme board. I hope there will be an opportunity for that board to respond and to satisfy all the questions raised today. I have noted them down. To put them in context, we need to know that terrorism and security issues are addressed head on—there can be no diminution in these. We must recognise that this involves real police officers and that there can be no impact upon their well-being, their morale or their situation, and that they must be treated with respect throughout this process. We must be cognisant of the no-detriment principle. Where there are costs, we must understand how those costs will be allocated fairly and appropriately. We must also recognise that they should not be unfairly or inappropriately placed elsewhere.

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness]

On the question of costs and the no-detriment principle, is this a matter for the joint programme board to sort out or do the United Kingdom Government have a view as to how any detriment to the British Transport Police in England and Wales should be addressed?