Levelling-up and Regeneration Bill

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th March 2023 Lords Chamber

Relevant documents: 24th Report from the Delegated Powers Committee, 12th Report from the Constitution Committee. Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Legislative Consent sought.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, I preface my remarks to the hearty few who are left behind by saying that the Marshalled List is fiddly today, so bear with me if I go off the rails. The noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, will be taking part remotely. I remind the Committee that, unless they are leading a group, remote speakers speak first after the mover of the lead amendment in a group and may therefore speak to other amendments in the group ahead of the Members who have tabled them.

Clause 32: Exercise of fire and rescue functions

Debate on whether Clause 32 should stand part of the Bill.

Building Safety Bill

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I was under the impression that this was grouped with a whole group of amendments that had been debated and therefore there was no need for a further debate. If I am wrong, of course I apologise.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I will take the blame for that. I should have said moved formally and that would have encouraged the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, to say “moved formally”. I will accept the admonition on that point. The noble Lord has saved the House some considerable time because I can see the page of that speech now fluttering in the wind.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Moved formally.

Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill [HL]

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 20th July 2021 Lords Chamber

Amendment 40 agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

We come to Amendment 41. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a Division must make that clear during the debate.

Amendment 41

Moved by

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Amendment 41 agreed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

We now come to the group beginning with Amendment 42. Anyone wishing to press this or anything else in the group to a Division must make this clear in the debate.

Clause 23: Crown application

Amendment 42

Moved by

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Amendment 43 not moved.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

We now come to the group consisting of Amendment 44. Anyone wishing to press this amendment to a division must make this clear in the debate.

Clause 25: Commencement

Amendment 44

Moved by

Business and Planning Act 2020 (Pavement Licences) (Coronavirus) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

Wednesday 14th July 2021 Lords Chamber

One hundred per cent smoke-free seating is easy to understand, simple to implement and popular with the public. Unfortunately, the Government’s compromise did not meet any of those tests. Revising the regulations to require 100% smoke-free pavement licences would have been a positive step towards delivering the Government’s vision of a smoke-free 2030 for England. Sadly, that opportunity has been missed this year, which is why I have tabled this amendment. Let us hope that we have another chance soon to get this right. I hope your Lordships will agree with me and vote for this amendment if I seek to test the opinion of the House. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I have received requests to speak from the noble Baronesses, Lady Northover and Lady Blake. I will call them in that order.

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I strongly support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, which he very effectively introduced. The Government claim that they want the UK to be smoke free by 2030, but they have a funny way of going about this.

Years back, despite the efforts of the tobacco industry, working cross party we introduced into the United Kingdom the provision that public places such as pubs and restaurants should be smoke free. Was that not a transformation? It made sense during the pandemic that pavement licences should be granted, as people needed to be more distant from each other. Most people welcomed these new arrangements. Pavements were often widened to accommodate them. Does the Minister agree that the key thing to remember here is that these areas are simply extensions of the areas inside and need to be smoke free as well—for people’s health, for them to be family-friendly and to move closer to the smoke-free aim that the Government apparently have?

We ran into all the usual tobacco industry-briefed objections last year and—surprise, surprise—it turned out that the noble Lord’s department had not properly consulted the Department of Health on the matter and had to scurry to do so. Has it fully done so this time?

The objections from the tobacco industry are so familiar to the Department of Health. The noble Lord, Lord Young, took these objections apart last week. I wish we had a stronger weapon than an amendment to an SI that was going to be just slipped through, having been debated in Grand Committee, where noble Lords cannot vote and would knock out the whole SI if we did. This SI will barely have been registered by most in your Lordships’ House. Thank goodness the noble Lord, Lord Young, noticed and flagged it to the rest of us.

If this amendment is lost, the Minister should not take that as the will of this House. I am fully confident that if and when we debate this in legislation, there will be overwhelming cross-party support in this House for helping to tackle the terrible scourge of smoking. The department should be very wary of the briefings and influential lobbies that push it in another direction. I hope I do not hear very familiar objections voiced by the Minister in a minute. On these Benches we strongly support this amendment and are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, for tabling it. I hope he calls a vote.

Town and Country Planning (Fees for Applications, Deemed Applications, Requests and Site Visits) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

Tuesday 29th June 2021 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the House has considered these draft regulations, which were laid in draft before this House on 27 May. If approved and made, these regulations will introduce fees for new permitted development rights that are currently, or will be, conditional on obtaining prior approval from the local planning authority. These permitted development rights relate to constructing additional storeys on existing dwelling houses, changing the use of commercial, business and service-class buildings to residential use and the development of university buildings.

I turn to the details of the regulations. A fee of £96 for prior approval is introduced for the enlargement of a dwelling house by construction of additional storeys made under class AA of Part 1 of Schedule 2 to the general permitted development order. This fee reflects the resourcing impacts on local planning authorities in processing such applications, and it is the same as the fee for applications for prior approval for larger home extensions. This is less than the fee for a planning application—£206—had the permitted development right not been introduced.

A fee of £100 per dwelling house is introduced for prior approval for the change of use from commercial, business and service use, or class E, to residential use, or class C3, under class M(a) of Part 3 of Schedule 2 to the general permitted development order. Responses to the consultation for this permitted development right indicated support for the introduction of a fee per dwelling house to help to meet the costs of local planning authorities. There was support for a higher fee, but we believe that a fee of £100 per dwelling house meets the right balance between encouraging development and meeting the costs of determining such applications.

Finally, a fee of £96 is introduced for prior approval for erection, extension or alteration of university buildings made under class M of Part 7 of Schedule 2 to the general permitted development order. The introduction of a prior approval condition was a response to the concerns raised at consultation. The fee reflects the costs to local planning authorities in assessing these types of application and is the same level as fees for other applications for other non-residential prior approvals where a similarly limited number of additional matters are required to be considered. The development rights to which the fees relate have already been introduced. If these planning fees are not introduced, the cost to the local authority to process these applications would have to be funded, or would continue to be funded, by taxpayers.

We have announced ambitious reform of the planning system to support the delivery of more homes as well as key transport and infrastructure projects. The draft regulations that we are debating today reinforce our commitment to ensuring that local authorities have adequate resources to deliver a high-quality planning service. I commend the instrument to the House.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I call the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Jones. The noble Lord, Lord Jones, is not with us today, so I will move straight on to the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan.

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[Baroness Blake of Leeds (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Government’s planning overhaul represents a developers’ charter to remove powers from elected local representatives and hand them over to Whitehall-appointed boards of developers. I believe this legislation is a small part of that overhaul.

The instrument before the Committee introduces new application fees for permitted developments, as we have heard, such as projects to add additional storeys and convert shops to houses. While we can all accept that these charges must be part and parcel of the planning system, I still have huge concerns that these are enabling the Government’s decision to take away the ability of local communities to object formally to inappropriate developments. All the while, there is still nothing to solve the growing affordable housing crisis that our country faces.

I will focus on the specific provisions of this instrument. I would appreciate clarification from the Minister in three specific areas. First, on the question of commencement, the Minister will note that the provisions come into force on the 28th day after the day on which they are made. Can he explain the Government’s reason behind this? Have they taken steps to ensure that there is not a rush of applications immediately before the commencement?

Secondly, on the exact fees, it appears that two of the fees being introduced are £96 while a third is £100. Can the Minister explain this discrepancy? As other contributors have asked, is the Minister certain that they have been set at the right level? Will they adequately provide funds that local authorities need to deliver this important area of work? I add my voice to the request that they be kept under review.

Finally, on the broader issue of implementation, can the Minister confirm whether the department has estimated how many applications these fees will apply to and how much revenue will be generated as a result?

As I said, the Government’s planning overhaul is a developers’ charter. We can all see that this is only another part of their strategy to do away with the normal scrutiny and oversight provided by local authorities and communities. I look forward to the Minister’s response to my questions.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

The noble Baroness will shortly be rewarded. I call the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh.

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Motion agreed.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

The Grand Committee stands adjourned until 3.30 pm. I remind Members to sanitise their desks and chairs before leaving the Room.

Fire Safety Bill

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

Tuesday 20th April 2021 Lords Chamber

I finish by reminding noble Lords that the Government have provided an unprecedented level of support for leaseholders, in excess of £5 billion. Noble Lords have a choice; it involves supporting getting this highly important Bill on to the statute book and not delaying its implementation any further, which will allow the Grenfell recommendations to be implemented and help make homes safer.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I have received a single request to speak after the Minister. I call the noble Lord, Lord Adonis.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

My Lords, we are talking about three different amendments; I am focusing on that from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans. In so far as I could tell, the detail of the Minister’s objection to the right reverend Prelate’s amendment was that further delay could be caused by uncertainty over the attribution of costs and that he objected to the amendment’s requirement that the scheme be statutory. Further delay depends on how long it takes the Government to come forward with their scheme; they are in complete control of the timescale. On the statutory scheme, to foster peace and good will between the right reverend Prelate and the Government, I suggest that “statutory” be replaced by “government” scheme—which need not necessarily be statutory, for the reasons the Minister gave. Would he be prepared to entertain this?

Inclusive Society

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

Wednesday 14th April 2021 Grand Committee

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling this important debate and for her excellent introduction.

The need to build an inclusive society has been exacerbated by the pandemic and by 10 years of cuts in our public services and underinvestment in our communities. Even before the pandemic, the fabric of our society was torn. Now, it feels ripped apart, ravaged by fear and insecurity. The inequalities in our society have been exposed, and this very morning we heard evidence from the Resolution Foundation that young black people have been hit hardest by the pandemic.

I hope that Covid has made us as a society re-evaluate our priorities and made us value people for what they contribute to society rather than for what they earn. The extraordinary dedication of our health and social care workers, our teachers, our police, the amazing volunteers and the new sense of community that we have also gives us hope, but hope is not enough. As Michael Marmot has said:

“There is now an urgent need to do things differently. We must build a society based on the principles of social justice; reduce inequalities of income and wealth; and build a wellbeing economy that puts achievement of health and wellbeing, rather than narrow economic goals, at the heart of government strategy.”


The government mantra of “build back better” should be replaced by “build back fairer”. I live and work in Oxford, which has one of the strongest economies in the UK and tremendous assets, including research and innovation, but it is ranked as the second most unequal city in the UK. Housing affordability is a critical long-term issue, along with poor educational attainment, health outcomes and food poverty. As in every other part of the UK, both urban and rural, and despite the fact that we have a first-rate council which responded swiftly to the needs across the city, it is the disadvantaged who have been hit hardest by Covid.

There is, however, a great determination to bring about an inclusive economy, which I would argue is fundamental to the building of an inclusive society. In 2019, as chair of the Oxford Strategic Partnership, and with the support of the city council and the LEP, I had the privilege to moderate and participate in a series of seminars which brought together key national policy thinkers, anchor institutions, including the university—I remind noble Lords of my interests in the register—and the NHS, major local employers, city and county council representatives and community groups to explore solutions to ingrained inequality.

This led to the establishment of an inclusive economy partnership to take forward action to create a more equal city. Our work was delayed by Covid, but now we are working towards turning words into actions. Our ambition is to hard-wire inclusivity into the economy so that it delivers economic and social outcomes that benefit the whole of the community. We have working groups with a timeline for action on social value and procurement—my noble friend Lord Mandelson talked about the power of public procurement—inclusive employment and enhancing access to affordable commercial property and workspace, education and skills so that there is improved educational attainment, skills-based training and access to jobs in the new economy, and place-based interventions in targeted areas.

We are striving to engage a wide and diverse spectrum of the community so that we are responding to need and so that there is ownership by the whole of us as a society. The actions of the city, county and district councils are key, both the elected representatives and officers, who are also catalysts for action in this shared endeavour. However, we also need action by national government. We need increased local powers and flexibilities to work at the local and regional level, along with devolved funding from central government to test and scale up promising programmes. New forms of finance from complementary sources, including community crowdsourcing, social impact bonds and the private sector, are vital and require innovative design, investment and leadership.

I am confident that the Inclusive Economy Partnership will make a real difference, with public, private and third sectors all working together with community-based organisations, the universities, and colleges. There is a real understanding of the need for investment in our economic and social infrastructure—in our people. There is understanding of the benefit of collaboration and coherence and that the well-being of our society is dependent on the ability of all to have access to good education, health, well-paid work and a home; to live with dignity and respect without poverty in a sustainable environment; to thrive. I hope that this sort of initiative is taking place in cities and towns all over the United Kingdom.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, I reiterate the point about timing. It is very important in a debate such as this that we stick to our times in order to allow all speakers to participate.

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[Baroness Drake (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, advances in technology have allowed millions to work from home, and businesses to adapt to the pandemic, to a far greater extent than would have been possible 20 years ago. However, while much of the nation pivoted their work and lives online, for a large proportion this was not possible. Certain sectors and geographies suffered much more than others, the young paid a high price and the pandemic heightened disparities in well-being.

The World Bank describes inclusion as

“the process of improving the terms on which individuals and groups take part in society”.

To me, that must embrace digital inclusion and a renewed social contract. In the current industrial revolution, the digital divide exacerbated by the pandemic is life-defining. Addressing it is integral to a more equitable basis for employment and economic growth. The barriers, such as acquiring digital skills, building infrastructure, securing connectivity and accessibility to services, all need to be overcome.

The Lloyds UK Consumer Digital Index reveals that two-thirds of jobs need digital skills of some kind and 52% of the UK workforce are not yet fully digitally enabled. We have a way to go. The index exposes the regional disparities that exist. As businesses recognise that resilience includes cybersecure working from home, anecdotal evidence reveals employers considering making dedicated access to home broadband a condition of employment, and not just for higher-skilled workers. The digital divide has exposed children to unequal access to virtual schooling.

We witnessed the state deploy measures unimaginable 15 months ago and saw the compelling evidence for mutual insurance, an effective welfare system and collective economic security. To make our socioeconomic system more inclusive, resilient and sustainable, a renewed social contract is needed. The pandemic is a wake-up call for purpose in business as societal inequalities and risks have been thrown into sharp relief. To quote Blueprint for Better Business,

“business will need to refresh its credentials as a genuine contributor to society in order to underpin its licence to operate and re-establish trust”.

Prior to the pandemic, household financial resilience was declining, not just among those with the lowest incomes. Each year millions of working-age people suffered an income shock because of ill-health, job loss, the death of a partner or other life events. Employment benefits, state benefits, private insurance, savings, affordable credit and fewer pre-existing debts strengthen financial resilience, but all those factors are weakening, shifting greater responsibility on to the individual, who may be ill prepared to bear it.

One in six people was self-employed, one in 12 had contracts with reduced protection, and 73% of people in regular jobs faced significant fluctuations in monthly earnings. More were in employment, yes, but there was a long-term decline, in both coverage and value, in employer provision of occupational benefits such as sick pay, redundancy pay and death benefits. Means-tested benefits had fallen in real terms; 11.5 million adults had less than £100 in savings; and 65% had no form of life or protection insurance. On home ownership, adults in their 30s and 40s are now three times more likely to rent than 20 years ago.

Declining household financial resilience, so exposed in the last year, is an unrecognised consequence of socioeconomic and public policy changes which need to be addressed. My noble friend Lady Lister argued the case most powerfully and I hope the Government will reflect, recognising what has happened in the last year, on the need for a radical change in the social contract.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I call the next speaker: the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. Are we Whittyless? You are muted, Lord Whitty—not only muted but invisible. We may return to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in due course. Let us move on to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson.

[Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, for tabling this debate today. I draw attention to my register of interests and that I am chair of ukactive and sit on the National Academy for Social Prescribing.

The pandemic has been tough, and we must recognise the ongoing risk not just from the virus but to the mental and physical health of our population. The impact of Covid has not been equal: 60% of those who have died have been disabled. In the last year, health inequalities have grown across all age groups. Those who are vulnerable have suffered the most and will continue to do so unless we act. Our NHS has demonstrated resilience of heroic proportions in the face of unprecedented pressure.

While sports stadia fell silent and the shutters fell on pools, gyms, leisure centres and clubhouses in every community, there has been a huge amount of resilience in the sector as so many have sought to support the public to carry on being active. There have been amazing examples of online workout classes and social events, and I also hear amazing stories of gym instructors delivering food parcels.

As Professor Greg Whyte OBE—Olympian, sports scientist and chair of the ukactive scientific advisory board—says, there is a clear correlation between physical inactivity and your risk from Covid-19, meaning that those not meeting the recommended guidelines for activity are at even greater risk than those with underlying conditions. He continues:

“Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, the average UK working adult sat down for nine-10 hours per day”,


and in lockdown, 42% admit to sitting for at least 14 hours longer per week. He said:

“The COVID-19 pandemic has had a profoundly negative impact on health and wellbeing. If we are to avoid an ongoing public health catastrophe, we need to urgently address the legacy of lockdown inactivity.”


This is not a new phenomenon. We have known about the physical inactivity crisis for years, but perhaps the pandemic should be the wake-up call for our nation’s physical activity levels. We know that physical inactivity is one of the greatest causes of death and disease globally. The UK’s activity levels are not where they should be, which weakens us against Covid-19.

On 13 April, The Times reported that the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh said that people aged 16 to 24 could struggle with paying fees to participate and that the Government should consider support in this area. Across the UK, we must be smart about how we roll out social prescribing to enable GPs and healthcare professionals to be creative so that medication is not the first port of call.

The Government are facing difficult times and will no doubt spend a great deal of energy reflecting on this health crisis, assessing how resilient we were to combat this pandemic, and propose change and reform. The scale of that change and reform, especially around public health, must take its place centre stage in our national debate on the future of our nation.

There is an opportunity for the Government to prioritise physical activity through both greater investment and taxation and regulatory reform, and to begin to improve our national well-being following this crisis. We require a national ambition to get all communities active and healthy again as swiftly as possible and to ensure a fitter, more active and resilient population.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

We now return to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty.

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[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, far from being the leveller that someone once naively suggested, the pandemic has been a magnifier of every inequality and injustice so I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Lister of Burtersett for convening this debate when so many of us seek a 1945-style new settlement after the hardships of the last year. These many sacrifices, including the ultimate one, have not been distributed with an even hand.

It is now over two years since the UN special rapporteur on extreme poverty published his damning report on the state of our nations. Professor Alston described the removal of our social safety net with “the systematic immiseration” of so many as the tragic consequences. This has only worsened as a result of Covid-19, despite the United Kingdom being one of the wealthiest places in the world. Millions of parents, including many in work, will skip at least one meal today in order to feed their children. I will use the remainder of my time to call for legally enforceable food rights in the United Kingdom, with corresponding duties and powers for national, regional and local government.

If charity alone were considered a sufficient guarantee for basic human needs in the UK, previous generations would not have legislated for universal state schooling or our National Health Service after the horrors and privations of World War II. Here are some modest initial ingredients of a right to food. Every child in compulsory education should be provided with a nutritious, free school breakfast and lunch. If we accept the universal and compulsory requirement that all children under 16 be in school, why break from that principle of care in relation to their meals during the day?

Universality avoids the bureaucracy and stigma of means-testing school-age children. If school kitchens are to be engines of better nutrition for our children during the day, why should they not be employed as community kitchens at other times for dining clubs, meals on wheels and cookery clubs so as to fight loneliness and isolation alongside food poverty and obesity?

To tackle the invidious choice that too many have to make between food—

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I am going to interrupt the noble Baroness because we have a Division coming. I shall suspend proceedings for five minutes to allow voting to take place.

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[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

The Grand Committee is back in session. I return us to the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti.

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, to tackle the invidious choice that too many have to make between food, fuel and other essentials, the Secretary of State should be under a duty when setting minimum and living wages and any social security benefit on which people are expected to live to state how much has been notionally apportioned for food. This transparency will aid public and parliamentary scrutiny and ultimately legal accountability. There should be a duty on the Secretary of State and the devolved Administrations to ensure food security and to take it into account when setting competition, planning, transport, local government and all other policy. There should also be powers to issue compulsory directions in the context of anticipated food emergencies or deserts in food standards or supply, and there should be independent enforcement of these rights and duties. Noble Lords are by definition privileged people. We owe it to our fellow citizens to abolish hunger in these islands for good.

Fire Safety Bill

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments & Lords Hansard
Wednesday 17th March 2021 Lords Chamber

Whatever one does in the context of the Bill, it has consequences in several other areas, so while I am hugely sympathetic to these amendments, I am forced to conclude that they may not achieve what is necessary. They are not the fix that is required in a moving and evolving situation, with some crucial areas clouded in uncertainty. I will listen carefully to what the Minister has to say but the Government need to be on the front foot here. These amendments seek to address part of a huge problem that is not going away and which must be addressed.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

The following members present in the Chamber have indicated that they wish to speak: the noble Lord, Lord Newby, the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London, and the noble Lord, Lord Adonis. I will call them in that order, so the first speaker is the noble Lord, Lord Newby.

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So can the Minister say what the Government are intending to do? Is their intention to stand by and leave hundreds of thousands of leaseholders at the mercy of individual negotiations and freeholders? Or will they move with a Government-led and nationally driven scheme to recover these costs, wherever possible, from developers who have made an absolute killing—sorry, that is not an appropriate word in this context—a fortune on developments, as the noble Lord, Lord Newby, rightly said? They often expect returns of the order of 20%, 25% or 30% when taking forward these developments. As has been shown, with substandard cladding fire safety regulations have not been properly enforced, so it is reasonable that they should be held accountable, and it is the Government, on behalf of the people at large, who should be holding them accountable. Before we pass this legislation into law, we should be assured that the Government have a proper, viable and effective plan to bring that about.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, is there anyone present in the Chamber, who has been here since the beginning of the debate, who wishes to contribute? No? In which case, I revert to the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I have listened carefully to the debate and will take this opportunity to address noble Lords’ comments and concerns in more detail. I start by addressing Amendment 2B. I again thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, for his constructive engagement with me on this. I reiterate again that the Government remain steadfast in their commitment to deliver the Grenfell Tower inquiry phase 1 report’s recommendations in full. It is understandable that the House wants to see visible progress on this and to have a better understanding of the timing of next steps and of the proposals that we will bring forward.

Today, the Government published their response to the fire safety consultation. This is an important and clear demonstration of our progression towards implementing the inquiry’s recommendations. I am clear that, subject to the Fire Safety Bill gaining Royal Assent, the Government intend to lay regulations before the second anniversary of the Grenfell Tower inquiry phase 1 report that will deliver on the inquiry’s recommendations. These will include measures around checking fire doors and lifts.

I am also committed to seeking further views, as soon as practicable, through a further public consultation on the complex issue of personal emergency evacuation plans. We already know that some of our proposals from the consultation will require primary legislation. They include strengthening the guidance relating to the discharge of duties under the fire safety order and the requirement for responsible persons in all regulated premises to record who they are and provide a UK-based address. We intend to include these measures, and possibly others that come out of the consultation, to strengthen fire safety in the building safety Bill, which will be introduced after the Government have considered the recommendations made by the Housing, Communities and Local Government Select Committee, and when parliamentary time allows.

I thank the noble Lord for, I hope, not pressing this matter to a vote. He is right in his role to hold the Government to account for delivering on the Grenfell recommendations, and I am pleased to have provided the reassurance that he sought.

I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for not pressing her amendment. I understand her interest in this area. More generally, we are looking at specific information-sharing provisions in the regulations and later in the building safety Bill, which we see as a first step to meeting the Grenfell recommendations on this issue.

In response to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, the other reason for resisting the public register amendment is that anyone from the general public would be able to access fire safety information about a building, which poses a security risk in the event that the information were accessed by someone with malicious or criminal intent. But the Government do agree with the principle that residents should be able to access critical fire safety information for the building that they live in, and we include proposals for this in the fire safety consultation.

I will now address Amendments 4B to 4F. First, I reiterate the intention conveyed in the other place that we share the concerns around the costs of remediation and the need to give leaseholders peace of mind and financial certainty. I have always been clear that all residents deserve to be and to feel safe in their homes. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government has committed to taking decisive action to deal with the cladding crisis, and, through the Government’s five-point plan, to provide reassurance to home owners and build confidence in the housing market.

First, as has been commented on, the Government will provide an additional £3.5 billion to fund the removal and replacement of unsafe cladding on residential buildings. This will be targeted at the highest-risk buildings—those over six storeys or above 18 metres—that have unsafe cladding. This is in line with long-standing expert advice on which buildings are at the highest risk. This brings the Government’s investment in building safety to an unprecedented £5 billion or more.

Secondly, we have been clear that leaseholders in lower-rise buildings, with a lower risk to safety, will gain new protection from the costs of cladding removal through a long-term, low-interest, government-backed financing scheme. Leaseholders in a residential building that is 11 to 18 metres in height with unsafe cladding will never pay more than £50 per month towards this remediation.

It is important that this government funding does not excuse building owners of their responsibility to ensure that buildings are safe. We have been clear that building owners and industry should make buildings safe without passing on costs to leaseholders. They should consider all routes to meet cost—for example, through warranties and recovering costs from contractors for incorrect or poor work.

As the Minister for Building Safety and Fire Safety, I will ensure that we drive forward to ensure that remediation of unsafe cladding is completed. I am clear that we have an ambitious timescale to do so. In response to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, progress has not been as fast as we would have liked, but we are making great progress, particularly given the constraints of the pandemic this year. Around 95% of high-rise buildings with Grenfell-type ACM cladding identified at the start of 2020 have completed remediation or have works on site to do so by the end of the year.

I want to be clear that, while this issue is vital, it would be impractical and confusing to include remediation measures in the Bill. This is because the fire safety orders are a regulatory framework that sets out the duties of a responsible person in relation to fire risk assessments. It does not cover the relationship, including potential financial obligations or prohibitions, between freeholder and leaseholder. The Bill is so important because it allows for effective enforcement where responsible persons are not abiding by their responsibilities. It addresses the situation where responsible persons refuse to remediate, which is an issue that I am sure the whole House wants resolved as soon as possible.

In contrast, the draft building safety Bill is the appropriate legislative mechanism for addressing the issue of who pays for mediation. Through the building safety Bill, the Government will strengthen the whole regulatory system for building safety, and ensure that there is greater accountability and responsibility for fire and structural safety issues throughout the life cycle of buildings within the scope of a more stringent regime. That Bill’s provisions will put the management of risk front and centre. It is important that remediation is addressed using its proactive mechanisms for managing fire and structural safety issues, such as the safety case. Remediation and costs to leaseholders should be dealt in the context of the Fire Safety Bill to ensure that legislation is coherent with the aims and scope of the new regime.

In response to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, I point specifically to Clauses 88 and 89 in the building safety Bill, which relate to charges. These clauses facilitate regulations that would amend the building safety Act and the Landlord and Tenant Act. We will add to what is already in the draft Bill, including additional duties on the accountable person to seek alternative funding before they pass costs on to leaseholders.

While I appreciate the desire that many noble Lords have for a quick legislative solution to the “who pays” issue, we also have a duty as parliamentarians to implement a clear framework and transparent legislation to support fire and building safety reforms. Even more than this, it is important to ensure that the practical implications of any legislation are properly worked through, rather than being rushed on to the statute book in this Bill. In this vein, I am clear that these alternative amendments do not work.

--- Later in debate ---

For practical reasons, these amendments are likely to be ineffective and may even make the situation worse for some leaseholders. Litigation arising from disputes over what landlords can and cannot recover from leaseholders, where legislation runs contrary to the provisions in existing lease agreements, and where there are disagreements over who should pay costs based on the source of a particular safety defect, is likely to be substantive and problematic. This might result in crucial remediation and even interim measures to protect residents from being delayed. I therefore hope that these amendments will not go to a vote.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I have received a single request to speak after the Minister. I called the noble Lord, Lord Adonis.

[Lord Adonis (Lab)]

The Minister did not comment on the figures given by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, which struck the House as of great concern. He said that average remediation costs could be in the order of £50,000 to £60,000 per leaseholder. Can the Minister comment on those figures?

Non-Domestic Rating (Lists) (No. 2) Bill

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

3rd reading
Tuesday 9th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, in moving this Motion, I express my thanks to noble Lords for their helpful insights and support throughout the proceedings. I especially thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Pinnock, Lady Bakewell and Lady Thornhill, and the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy, Lord Addington, Lord Shipley, Lord Stunell, Lord Moynihan, Lord Bourne and Lord Thurlow. I also thank the Local Government Association and the Valuation Office Agency for engaging with my officials during the passage of the Bill and, indeed, even before it was introduced in the other place.

Every revaluation requires the co-operation of all stakeholders involved in business rates. I thank the Rating Surveyors’ Association, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors and the Institute of Revenues, Rating and Valuation. Their expertise and support have been, and will continue to be, a central part of the revaluation process. Finally, I thank my department’s Bill team—Nick Cooper, Rhys Tomlinson, Nick Pellegrini, Tom Adams and Lee Davies, as well as Sam Loxton in my own private office—for their support throughout this process. I beg to move.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

The Question is that this Bill do now pass. As many as are of that opinion shall say “content”.

I am sorry—I am being too quick this time. I call the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, for his engagement on the Bill. As always, he was very generous with his time and I have enjoyed working with him. Also, through him, I thank all the officials in his department. Again, they were generous with their time and open in engaging with me.

This is a very small, one-clause Bill, but it raises very important issues and the debates we had were much wider than the one clause itself. We all love our high streets. We love the pubs, cafés and shops we go to and I hope the Minister will take away all the issues we raised in the discussion of the Bill and look at them because, yes, it is great that we can have online deliveries, but getting a box to your front door is not quite the same as going out on a Saturday morning to your favourite café and reading the paper, meeting your friends at the shops and so forth. We have to protect our high streets and all the shops that we all love.

I know that the noble Lord agrees with me on those matters, but we need to make sure that, in the period ahead, we are looking at ways to support our high streets. Yes, they have to evolve, but, equally, we have to make sure that they are still there, delivering for our communities. Our communities thrive only when we can meet each other, and being on a high street and visiting your favourite café or pub to meet your friends is the way it works. However, on that basis, I thank the noble Lord and his officials again for their engagement on the Bill.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I call the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock. I am back on form now.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I give my thanks also to the Minister and his officials for the time that was offered for helpful briefings at each stage of the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, it is a very simple Bill just to change the date of revaluations, which start in April this year but come into effect in 2023.

One issue raised during the Bill which we need to keep a watchful brief on is that, because the revaluation is starting this April, with the huge upheaval in market rents due to the pandemic it will be difficult to make assessments of rental value, which could affect the outcome of when businesses start paying in 2023. I hope the Minister can confirm that he will inform the House of any difficulties that arise from the timings of the revaluation.

The other issue discussed during the passage of the Bill, on which there was broad agreement on all sides of the House, was the strategic one about the future of the business rates system. Evidence was provided during all stages of the Bill demonstrating that retailers on the high street were at a huge disadvantage in business rates charged compared to those retailers which were online only. The differential is very large; a small shop in a small town may have a rental value at least five times that of a large online retailer in an out-of-town warehouse.

There is wide concern about the future of our high streets. The vast majority of people want to see the high street retained as a community focus, as the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, has just described. One policy lever available to the Government to provide stimulus to the high street is a fundamental reform of the business rates system. It cannot for ever be put on the “too difficult” pile that the Government must have. Can the Minister provide the House with any timetable for the long-awaited reform of business rates? That would provide some hope to retailers on our high streets that change will come.

With those questions and comments, I look forward very much to hearing what the Minister has to say.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, this has indeed been a very narrow Bill but a very broad discussion. I thank noble Lords for the many points that have been raised during its passage, particularly in considering how we can support our town centres, especially our high streets, that give such a high quality of life to the residents of our towns and cities.

I point out to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, that we are very clear that we will ensure that we keep a close eye on the impact of timings as this exercise is carried out and that we intend to look at the future of business rates. However, that is predicated on the fundamental review of business rates taking place later this year. I also assure the noble Lord, Lord Thurlow, that, as far as is practical, local authorities’ finance will be protected via the business rates retention scheme and other measures to ensure that there should be no material impact on local authority finances.

A number of issues have been raised, and it has been an important Bill.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

A bit of a longer debate than I anticipated, but a worthy one none the less.

Bill passed.

Rough Sleeping

Lord Duncan of Springbank Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, it is indeed blue-sky thinking to guarantee someone an income that is paid by the state. I point out that in the pandemic we have seen the national debt increase substantially to the level of our economic output for a year, which is some £2.2 trillion. In that environment, it is very difficult to make these kinds of spending commitments, and I will certainly leave something like that to the Chancellor.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, all the questions have been taken. Before we move on to the next business, I suggest that we take a short breather to allow people to move in and out of the Chamber.