Illegal Migration Bill

Debate between Lord Dubs and Lord Paddick

Committee stage
Wednesday 24th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

I shall be very careful—I do not want to be thrown out of here. During the referendum campaign, Boris Johnson said that if we did not leave the EU, 70 million or 80 million Turks were poised to enter Britain. That inflamed public opinion and moved it away from sympathy for immigrants, and indeed for refugees, as the public do not always distinguish between the two. It made me realise that public opinion can move about, but it is important. I have said all along when I have talked about refugees that it is important that we explain what is going on in such a way that public opinion is on our side.

On Amendment 4, I believe that the British public on the whole, if it was explained sensibly and objectively, would say, “We understand why we adhere to these international treaties, why they matter and why they are important”. I fear that, when eminent members of the Cabinet talk about “invaders”, they seek to poison public opinion and make it less sympathetic to how we treat asylum seekers and refugees. I think that is very sad indeed. The language we use too often does influence public opinion and I hoped at least some of this debate would have gone the other way. I think those of us who believe in the 1951 Geneva convention and the other international agreements have a responsibility to try and explain the issues in such a way that British people understand what is at stake. I believe there is a great deal at stake here.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, we support the clarifying amendments in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, and my noble friend Lady Ludford has explained at length the reasons for her Amendment 2. I, too, will read the official record in an attempt to understand the points raised by the noble Lords, Lord Sandhurst and Lord Wolfson of Tredegar. Having done that, I may just leave that to the lawyers to argue among themselves.

However, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, has said, if this Bill is not compliant with the European Convention on Human Rights, then the Government should say why or which bits of it are compliant. If there is a precedent for the Government to say that a Bill is not in compliance with the European Convention on Human Rights—the precedent set in the 2002 Act—then surely the precedent set by the 2002 Act is that the Government also say which bits of the Act are not compliant with the European convention.

Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II

Debate between Lord Dubs and Lord Paddick

Saturday 10th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I have been trying to make sense of all this, as someone who never met Her late Majesty. My mother was seven years older than Her Royal Highness Queen Elizabeth II, but when I lost my own personal life anchor, when my mother died, I felt that I still had Her Majesty the Queen.

Her late Majesty was the safest of a safe pair of hands. She was the most reliable of the people upon whom we relied; she was the greatest example of duty and dedication. I was concerned in recent years that the Queen could not possibly continue to the very end without having to abdicate as old age took its toll, yet she served to the very end—something that I feel sure she would have been very happy to achieve. Our Lord Jesus Christ is sometimes described as the servant king. Her late Majesty was surely the servant Queen. May she rest in peace.

The work of this House has been disrupted, normal life is interrupted, and all this feels very destabilising—but we have a new monarch and a new life anchor. If Liz Truss was anxious about having a difficult act to follow, spare a thought for His Royal Highness King Charles III. Our thoughts are with His Majesty and other members of the Royal Family at this time of loss and grief. In his address to the nation yesterday, His Majesty the King showed every sign that he can and will be our new source of stability during these turbulent times. Long may he reign.

What would my mother have said? Being of the same generation, I can hear Her late Majesty saying the same: “All very unfortunate, but you’ll just have to get on with it”. And we will, with God’s help, and the leadership of our King.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a privilege to take part in this debate and I shall try to be brief: I have deleted things I was going to say that are already covered in the Hansard of either House, noble Lords will be relieved to know.

I shall start with Northern Ireland. There was, at the time I served there, a tradition that when a member of the Royal Family visited Northern Ireland, they should be accompanied by a Minister. Fast forward to 1997, when I was appointed s one of the Northern Ireland Office Ministers. We were having a ministerial meeting and we discovered that the first Northern Ireland Questions in the Commons after the election clashed with a Hillsborough garden party. There was some consternation until my boss, Mo Mowlam, pointed to me and said, “You’ll have to deal with it.” I was briefed for at least two hours the evening before on how I should deal with the garden party—in particular, how I should look after and escort the Queen. It was an interesting occasion.

At lunch, I sat on the Queen’s right and she was brilliant in her analysis of Northern Ireland politics and Northern Ireland politicians: I wish I had kept a record—though I am also glad I did not. It was like a seminar from her; she was on top of the issues, she had good judgments, which I cannot, of course, quote, and it was a total insight. I was utterly captivated. After lunch, I took her around the gardens, introducing her to people I did not know, which is an art form in itself. I had a filing cabinet in each pocket and I managed, but sometimes the people to whom I was introducing the Queen were in the wrong order. However, she handled it with absolute professionalism, so that when I was a bit flustered, she was not flustered. It was an absolutely remarkable occasion.

The week before that, the Queen wanted to meet the new junior Ministers in the 1997 Government, so we all went to Buckingham Palace. We were chatting to the Queen and at one point the conversation turned to the procedures for the Queen’s Speech. The Queen asked, referring to Members of the Commons, how they actually listen to the Queen’s Speech, to which the reply was that some come to the Bar of the House and others watch on television. Then I said something that perhaps I should not have said, but my tact disappeared. I said to the Queen, “Your Majesty, have you ever delivered a Queen’s Speech you didn’t agree with?” There was a deathly silence—my ministerial colleagues thought I was going to be out—and the Queen looked at me and said, “Yes, it has happened”, but I did not ask her to give me examples of the occasions on which it had happened.

More recently, Prince Charles, as he then was, and his wife came to the Irish centre in Hammersmith. It was a very jolly occasion, several months ago. There was music, dancing and so on, and the royal couple entered totally into the spirit of it. Then, of course, yesterday evening, we heard his brilliant speech—his brilliant and emotional tribute to his mother—and I thought that a man who can go from the previous occasion to that really can encompass the whole range of responsibilities that now befall him.

I turn very briefly to the visit to Ireland by the Queen in 2011, I think. I was not there, but it was an absolutely brilliant occasion and it made a difference for the better in the relationship between this country and Ireland. She did not put a foot wrong: she wore a green dress, spoke Gaelic and paid tribute to the Irish dead from 1916 and 1921. It was absolutely handled brilliantly.

I have just one other little anecdote. Some years ago, the Queen went to Bratislava where there was a commemoration of two events: the end of the Iron Curtain—after all, Bratislava was and is on the border with Austria—and the Kindertransport. The British embassy invited some of us who came to Britain on Kindertransport to go there. Schoolchildren were doing a project on the occasion and the Queen was there. We were lined up—bear in mind that I had already met the Queen several times in Northern Ireland—and she came down the line of Kindertransport people, came to me and said, “I didn’t know this about you.” It was quite disarming and very sweet. I was really impressed again, by her and the way she handled things.

Finally, I am a member of the OSCE Parliamentary Assembly. We have a WhatsApp group. I am getting a stream of tributes to the Queen from parliamentarians from various countries. They are very moving. Quite a lot are in French, which I will not read out, but I will read out one from a politician from one of the OSCE countries:

“The death of Queen Elizabeth has reached the whole world. She was appreciated, admired and respected for her loyalty, humility and sense of duty. No nation could have wished for a better monarch. Her reign left her mark in modern history.”

Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Lord Dubs and Lord Paddick

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

I will say from these Benches that, if the Government insist on bringing forward such controversial legislation, they cannot expect anything other than a number of noble Lords wanting to speak on these issues. If it were uncontroversial, noble Lords would not be queuing up to speak on the Bill. This is why we are in this situation, and we need more time so that we can adequately scrutinise this very controversial Bill.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all Members who have contributed to the debate and to the Minister for her stamina in continuing and continuing. I am sure she will go on until the early hours with great strength.

I will comment very briefly, as is my right. First, we had a very unusual thing happen tonight—

Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Lord Dubs and Lord Paddick

Committee stage & Lords Hansard - Part 1
Thursday 27th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, as we have heard, the Joint Committee on Human Rights spent quite a lot of time considering this and related issues. I should perhaps say at the outset that when I was in the Commons, I served on the Public Bill Committee dealing with the Bill that became the British Nationality Act. I am trying for the life of me to remember some of the details of the discussions. I have not had time to look them all up, but we certainly spent many weeks and many sittings on that Bill, but I do not recall this issue arising. I do not think the good character requirement existed then; I think it was brought in later.

The issue is that in the process of trying to get British nationality, there has been some discrimination, or there would be discrimination if the good character requirement were to apply. I am thinking of somebody who should normally have been able to get British citizenship but was unable to do so and, when applying now, if this is passed, will have to meet the good character requirement. That seems a little odd. I hope I have understood that correctly; that was certainly how we looked at it on the Joint Committee on Human Rights.

Perhaps the best thing I can do is to quote from the committee’s report, because it states it very clearly. This is from paragraph 41:

“We reiterate concerns made by this Committee in previous Parliaments that requiring good character when considering applications resolving prior discrimination risks perpetuating the effects of discrimination for those previously discriminated against. Moreover, we also share the concerns raised by the JCHR in 2019 about the appropriateness of the good character requirements being applied to children, particularly children whose main or only real connection may be with the UK. It is difficult to align this requirement with the obligation to have the best interests of the child as a primary consideration.”


That is the case for this amendment.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lady Hamwee has comprehensively explained the reasons for these amendments, which we support. On the issue of good character, if someone has the right to become a British citizen—they already have that right; they just want to register it—what has good character got to do with it, particularly if they are children? Even if the applicant is guilty of a criminal offence, surely denial of citizenship is a disproportionate punishment.

What are we to say about people who acquire British citizenship at birth? We do not say to British citizens, “You’ve been found guilty of a criminal offence, so we are going to take away your citizenship.” What is the difference if people have to apply to register their British citizenship? We fully support these amendments.