Further Developments in Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard. If only he were just as willing to follow me on one or two of the issues that we discuss, but we always do so in a spirit of dignity and good humour. Long may that be the case when it is so often lacking in these discussions.

Over the weekend, I went to see the Magna Carta in Salisbury. It is one single, magnificent sheet of parchment—not 611 pages, just one—and it got me wondering precisely what our rather dusty barons of Runnymede were about. I suppose at the heart it was the question of who owns Britain. In the eight centuries since Magna Carta the answer has moved steadily, if not always inexorably, in one direction: the people. It is the people who are the ultimate source of our power and authority—except that recently, the people started discovering that they were losing their power. There were things that they could not change, not even through an election. They no longer owned this country. We pretended otherwise, of course. We even gave the people a referendum and promised that they would decide but that was not strictly honest, was it? The noble Lord, Lord Sherbourne, who is sadly not in his seat any more, described that to us so eloquently just a few minutes ago. And so we have created this momentous mess.

For the moment, I would like to focus my remarks on our relations with Ireland and make three points. First, perhaps I am a little naive but I do not actually understand what is meant by a hard border. I know it is absolutely central to everything—the backstop and the whole of Brexit—but what is a hard border? Is it a line on a map or a white line on the road? Is it CCTV cameras or barbed wire? We have spent so long talking about it that there must, I am sure, be a definition. I would be grateful if my noble and learned friend would take pity on my naivety and give us a precise definition of what the Government think a hard border is. I am in a state of heightened expectation.

Secondly, can I be allowed to express my astonishment that no one in this Government seems to have made it their passion to tell the people of Ireland that we understand their concerns—that we embrace them and will not let them down—and that whatever is decided in Brussels it will not be the British who build border posts? The Irish have a special place in our past and in our future. For me, Ireland is more than a friend and neighbour; it is practically family. We have all fought so hard, suffered so long and endured so much to bring our relations out of the pit of despair. So why are not we doing more? It is never too late.

My third point is this. The United Kingdom and Ireland have made so much progress in the last 20 years, yet Brussels seems to be trying to wrench our two nations apart again and to turn fraternity into rivalry by imposing a deal that threatens to divide the United Kingdom itself. Do your Lordships remember how ferociously angry the Germans got when someone suggested that the unification of their country might be a bad idea? That is nothing compared to the fury that would erupt in Germany if they were told that it had to be divided once again. Yet division is precisely what the EU is now advocating for the United Kingdom. Monsieur Barnier was reported in the French current affairs magazine Le Point as saying in 2016:

“I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.


To me, that sounds like punishment and the imposition of penalties, and it has been a consistent theme of EU policy these past two years.

I have never known a time like this. We have a flat-pack Cabinet that threatens to collapse every time you switch the telly on. I have never known a House of Commons like this: there are MPs who treat the future of this country like feudal lords, the sort we kicked out of this House generations ago; who treat their manifesto promises like discarded Christmas wrapping paper; who walk out of the prison gates and straight back into the House of Commons to vote on the laws that we are going to live under. It is extraordinary. How on earth did we get here?

Nobody in their right mind ever pretended that Brexit would be without its challenges, so I go back to the question posed by our dusty barons of Runnymede. Who is in charge here? Well, perhaps we will find out tomorrow. If it all goes screwy again, however, sources are suggesting that the Prime Minister might resign. That would of course be a personal tragedy.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I think the barons at Runnymede would have been surprised by the suggestion that the people were in charge of the country. They would have thought that they were.

[Lord Dobbs]

I am grateful for that point. The barons of Runnymede insisted that we live under the rule of law, which is what we are talking about here, right now. The barons of Runnymede said that there must be change and, over 800 years, there has been a huge amount of change. It has taken a few beheadings of noble Lords, I would submit, but we have got where we are and been admired for the parliamentary democracy that we have built in this country—until now.

I return to the point that the Prime Minister’s future seems in jeopardy and, if she were to resign, it would be a personal tragedy. She has worked so hard but, in the circumstances, perhaps it would be constitutionally understandable. I wonder what a new Prime Minister’s first words from the steps of Downing Street might be; not “Brexit means Brexit”, surely. That one has been a bit overdone. But perhaps he or she might start the long process of restoring people’s trust by turning to them and saying that this is your country, your future; it was your choice. I hope, on their behalf, that we can still find the wisdom to get on and deliver the Brexit they voted for.

Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, it is always a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, even though I cannot always follow the thrust of his arguments.

How I wish this deal might have settled things, even with a heavy dose of compromise. Would that not have been nice? But where it should clarify, it confuses, and where it should deliver, it delays. Far from shining an illuminating light on the subject, it simply lights a bonfire of the Government’s frequent explicit promises about the role of the ECJ, about leaving the customs union and about treating all of the United Kingdom as one.

Historians of the near future will ask why the EU, with all its genuine ideals, went so badly wrong. They will identify one cause above all else: its driving ideology, that of political union. It is not an evil ideology, but it is unremitting and so inflexible that those who threaten it, as we do, are punished as a deliberate act of policy—like Greece has been punished. The birthplace of democracy had the temerity to vote for change and instead has been ruined. If you think that is rubbish, please visit the poor, benighted citizens of Greece and see how they are suffering.

Why should elections or referendums make any difference to a European Union whose deafness of ear, blindness to opportunity and wilful rejection of demands to fill the democratic deficit have turned it in on itself? Its response to every question and every rebuff is always more of the same: more Europe—an insistence that there is no other way but theirs.

The establishment loves this deal, of course, because it changes almost nothing. Elites do not want change; they want protection and the status quo. So the CBI, big business, even big charities—those who think only within the big bubble—applaud.

But just imagine if Brexit were put on hold, as I think this deal tries to do—or even reversed, as some want. That would not finish the argument. Political union, the fundamental ideology of the EU, will not change, so the fundamental arguments against it will not change either. The demand for separation from the EU would return with even greater force and, I fear, perhaps in sharper, uglier form. It would be a gift for the bigots and xenophobes who would treat our neighbours in Europe as the enemy, not the allies and friends they are.

There are those who embrace the EU and all its ideals, including many in this House. But sometimes we destroy the things we love the most. Look around Europe and tell me that that is not happening there.

I want a bigger, more open Britain, which takes the many talents and cultures we have and forges them into an exciting new player on the stage, not looking back but looking forward to the challenges and opportunities of a new world that has already left the European Union behind. It is not about having our cake and eating it but finding a better future for our children and grandchildren, one they can create for themselves.

Today we are engaged in a great experiment to test the proposition that it is possible, democratically and peacefully, to leave the European Union and become a sovereign, independent nation once again. If we fail that test, I fear that the price we will be forced to pay—the damage to our sense of self, our standing in the world and, perhaps most of all, our respect for our parliamentary institutions—will be beyond measure.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Committee: 11th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I am immensely grateful to the noble Lord for the gift of the Adonis nut bar. I tried to buy one online and was told that the site is pornographic—the parliamentary internet is very well policed—but I could refer the matter to my supervisor if I wished to take it further. I toyed with referring it to my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition but I thought she would be very keen that I did not eat the nut bar, because she thinks I have far too much energy at the moment in any event in pursuing these matters in the House.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

I found one of these nut bars the other day. It has lots of impenetrable small talk and carried a health warning. I think it was suitably named.

Queen’s Speech

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Wednesday 28th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, every time I hear the term “soft Brexit” I think of blancmange. Blancmange Brexit. You know, you hit it with a spoon, you watch it wobble, it changes its shape. In fact, it can be any shape you want, really. To some, it means staying in the single market. The only trouble with that, of course, is that it is not Brexit at all, as the noble and much-respected Lord, Lord Adonis, will instantly recognise.

Have we forgotten those remainers during the referendum at their cauldron, throwing in their toads’ legs and snake eyes, giving it—dare I say it?—a liberal stirring and insisting that Brexit was incompatible with the single market? “It’s one or the other”, they said. “You can’t do both”.

Despite all that, Britain chose Brexit. Why? Perhaps because the EU is losing the moral authority it once had. It claims the moral high ground, but its moral high ground stands next to a cliff edge—the one on which Greece stood a few years ago, only to be pushed in the back. That is the EU’s reality, and it is simply untruthful to pretend that poor Greece will ever be able to repay its debts. That is ideology wrapped up in fantasy.

However, we on the Brexit side have also stumbled over our moral message. How have we allowed the debate on immigration to grow so ridiculously bereft of balance, polarised between the ideologues on the one hand and the imbeciles? We can do better than that. There is an overwhelming moral case for controlling our immigration policy, but we have to find a better language to express it—and, for goodness’ sake, no magic cap or meaningless targets.

When we talk of reciprocity for EU citizens, although I very much welcomed yesterday’s announcement I did not welcome the implication that they might somehow be chips in a game of poker. Whatever happens, there is not a snowflake’s chance in hell that Britain will send back 3 million honest citizens. They are our friends and our partners, and they are welcome.

Perhaps we cannot always use the language of a love-in, but do we always have to reach for hard words? It is said that no deal is better than a bad deal, and I believe that that is probably right, but we do not need to beat the point to death. We are dealing with friends. We want more than a deal; we want an agreement, not a war of words.

It was Nick Clegg who used the most patronising language. He described Brexit as generational theft, as if the young never change their minds. But in a way he was right: we have stolen from the young—the post-millennials, those whose first memory was probably 2001 and the twin towers. Then in 2003 came the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, the great financial crash in 2007, and so much more. To hell with strong and stable. The only world that generation has known is one dominated by the war on terror. Surely that alone is enough for us to question the path we have been travelling all these years and to ask whether there is not a better way.

Brexit does not mean turning our back on anyone. It means a Britain alongside, rather than inside, the EU, still joined in so many vital and convivial ways, more flexible and more true to its unique values, and more open to the world—a Britain more responsible for its own affairs and to its own people, young and old, and, yes, able to be even better neighbours in a new partnership with Europe.

There is a great moral case, and not only for finishing such speeches inside the five-minute limit; there is a far greater moral case for Brexit and we must carry on making it.

Assisted Dying: Legislation

Lord Dobbs Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I do not believe that any challenges faced by our health staff in hospitals will alter their view as to issues of life and death. I do not believe that for one moment.

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, the Supreme Court judgment in 2014 that the Minister quoted a moment ago, among other things, implied very strongly that the current law is incompatible with human rights legislation and hinted that Parliament should resolve this issue, otherwise the courts themselves would. If there is an incompatibility between the blanket ban on assisted dying and human rights legislation, should it not be resolved in Parliament rather than by judges?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, in the case of Nicklinson, the Supreme Court determined by a majority of seven to two that there should be no declaration of incompatibility with the convention on human rights. It did of course observe that this was a matter that should be looked at by Parliament, and since that judgment, it has been looked at by Parliament on two distinct and separate occasions. Parliament has expressed its views on this matter.