Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill

Debate between Lord Desai and Lord Henley

Wednesday 5th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I will make no guarantee at this stage. I noted that my noble friend Lord Carlile suggested a delay for the Olympics. We will certainly look at that. It is something that I am sure will be argued in Committee. I give no guarantees but it is something that can be looked at. Obviously, it is important to get these things right.

[Lord Desai]

I was in India when the London riots took place. The one fear that everybody expressed was, “What will happen at the Olympics?”. It is very important that, whatever the Government do, they take care over the global anxiety about security in London during the Olympics, and do nothing to give the impression that we are lowering our guard.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I can give an assurance to the House, to the noble Lord and to anyone else who reads our debates that the Government take security for the Olympics very seriously indeed. Again, this is a point that we will have to consider further when we get to Committee stage but I note what the noble Lord had to say.

The noble Lords, Lord Goodhart and Lord Pannick, asked whether the TPIMs system should not be made by a judge rather than just judge reviewed. The noble Lord recalled the passage of the 2005 Act, which we all remember. He recalled my late noble friend Lord Kingsland, who at that stage wanted control orders to be made by the judge. I think that I was probably sitting next to him as he made those arguments but I cannot remember the exact outcome other than the fact that the Government got their way in the end and we have all moved on and changed our views on these things. However, we believe that this is a matter of national security and is properly a matter for the Secretary of State. While there obviously should be the appropriate extensive judicial oversight of the Secretary of State’s decision, it should none the less be the responsibility of the Home Secretary and not the High Court to impose these notices. We believe this is consistent with the approach that we have taken in other areas such as in decisions to exclude, deport or deprive citizenship on the basis of national security considerations. However, the TPIMs regime must certainly be subject to very thorough oversight arrangements by the courts. I hope that we have set out just how thorough those will be. As I said, we will continue to argue that case during the passage of the Bill.

As regards the renewal and the review by Parliament, as all noble Lords have reminded us, control orders have been subject to review every year. It was proposed that they should be reviewed every five years. That concession was brought in in another place. We believe that five years strikes the right balance. It will recognise the competence of Parliament—each Parliament will be five years from now on—to scrutinise the Bill and to arrive at a settled position on proportionate and effective powers that are needed to protect the public. It will also allow each new Parliament to review the situation and to consider whether the powers are still needed, and will mirror the length of Parliaments that we now have provided for in the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill. Ending annual renewal will allow the system to operate in a stable and considered way, focusing on protecting the public and striking the right balance with liberty rather than on merely political bickering. If we have the annual debate, I wonder whether, as with some other annual debates that we have, there will be a gradual diminishing in the interest taken in that and whether this is not something that should be left for each new Parliament to decide in due course. As I said, this matter has been raised by a large number of noble Lords on all sides of the House and I am more than happy to consider it again when we get to Committee stage.

My noble friend Lord Howard talked about being a member of the committee of privy counsellors looking at intercept and how he would have liked to use intercept if it were possible but that he was beginning to see the difficulties in so doing. I looked back to the debates in 2005 that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, will remember. In those debates it was not Lord Kingsland arguing the point from the opposition Benches but myself. The noble and learned Lord will remember that we had considerable discussions on this matter. I think we all accept that views can change. We are committed to seeking a practical way that will allow the use of intercept evidence in court. That work is under way. My noble friend Lord Howard and others are involved in that. We will report to Parliament in due course. However, as my noble friend made perfectly clear, the issues are difficult and complex. None the less, we believe that a workable scheme could offer clear benefits in terms of enhanced scope to bring the guilty to justice and increased confidence in the justice system.

I wanted to cover those brief points at this stage. I appreciate that noble Lords have raised a large number of other points. I repeat that this has been a very good and useful debate in first airing our views on the Bill. That is exactly what a Second Reading should be. I look forward very much to Committee stage. I hope that we can continue to argue the case in a civilised manner and send the Bill back to another place in as good a state as we can get it. I commend the Bill to the House. I beg to move.

Queen's Speech

Debate between Lord Desai and Lord Henley

Wednesday 2nd June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

The forecasts of the OBR, as I made clear, will be independent. It is for it to make those independent forecasts. I was trying to stress its independence. I shall write to the noble Lord on that in greater detail, but its independence was his principal concern. He will have a chance to see the first of those forecasts quite soon, as I understand that the first of them will be out before the Budget. If I am wrong about that, I shall let him know in due course.

One should also refer to the OECD’s recent economic report, which argues that a more rapid fiscal consolidation would help the recovery by leaving room for interest rates to remain lower for longer. That will support spending by households and by business. The importance of taking action this year is underlined by recent events in the eurozone. Failure to take action would put that recovery at risk.

I turn to questions asked about tax. Noble Lords mentioned CGT, income tax and tax avoidance—that was the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott. We heard confessions from the noble Lord, Lord Desai, about his having to resign from the pre-1997 opposition Front Bench for his views about that. As I remember it—the noble Lord will no doubt correct me—he had to resign from the opposition Front Bench more than once.

[Lord Desai]

I was sacked.

[Lord Henley]

I remind the House for its amusement that the second occasion on which the noble Lord was sacked, or it might have been the first, was the result of his having informed the House, or perhaps the world more generally, that his then leader—we shall not mention which leader it was—was no economist. That struck me as a statement of the obvious, but he was sacked nevertheless.

Many noble Lords have raised CGT, VAT, income tax and tax generally. The noble Lord, Lord Myners, pressed me to give an explanation of what was going on. I have to remind him, first, that I am not a Treasury Minister and, secondly, that I think he knows the date of the Budget. Neither the noble Lord nor any other noble Lord expects me to second-guess my right honourable friend. It is very tempting to do so, but it is one of those occasions where one has to say that it is beyond my pay grade. The noble Lord will have to wait three weeks until the Budget to hear answers on those matters.

I appreciate that time is moving on, so I shall say a little about policy on climate change, which was another subject that attracted a great many speakers. I was grateful for the support that came from many noble Lords, but I noticed the concern expressed by two sceptics—I think that that is the right word—on my own Benches, my noble friends Lord Lawson and Lord Reay. As the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Hunt of Chesterton, and my noble friend Lord Jenkin put it, there is a need to convince the public on this issue. It might be more than just the public that we have to convince; it might be some of my noble friends. Certainly, there are matters that we need to look at here, and a great number of matters on which I shall have to write to noble Lords in due course to deal with their concerns. For example, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, raised the question of the Government’s commitment to the renewable heat initiative. That is something that we are committed to supporting, but we still need to consider the various options for promoting it most efficiently.

We will look at all the other renewables that noble Lords mentioned—and my noble friend Lord James referred to the possibility of tidal power on Dogger Bank. As my noble friend himself admitted, some pretty great technological challenges face us in an area such as that. I also give an assurance to my noble friend Lord Teverson that we will certainly push the EU to demonstrate leadership by tackling the levels of international climate change and supporting the increase in the EU emission reduction target to 30 per cent by 2020.

There were some fairly technical questions from my noble friend Lord Jenkin and the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, on the carbon floor price—questions that are slightly beyond my level at the moment. That is something for other departments, but I can give an assurance that we will introduce a carbon floor price because we recognise that the long-term certainty of the carbon price is one factor that affects investment decisions in low-carbon electricity generation. The exact timing of its introduction needs to be considered further but will need to fit the objective of increasing incentives for low-carbon generation. I note the concerns expressed by my noble friend Lord Jenkin on the speed of planning decisions.

I turn to the question of whether nuclear power needs subsidy, a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Giddens. We believe that it does not need public subsidy and, on that basis, energy companies have already come forward with plans to build and stand up to 16 gigawatts of new nuclear energy. Certainly, we are keen on new nuclear energy, and I can give that assurance to the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan. On his more detailed question about the funding for Sheffield Forgemasters, as he will be aware, the Treasury has asked all departments to look at all spending approvals since 1 January this year, which would include that project. Due diligence is required because of the budgetary position that this Government inherited from the Government of whom the noble Lord was such a supporter, to see whether those plans are affordable and consistent with government priorities. If they are consistent with that, they will go ahead—but that is all that I can assure him of at the moment.

I shall say a word or two about regional development agencies, which were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Liverpool, who spoke about the regional development agency in my area and his area—the Northwest Regional Development Agency. My noble friend Lord Bates spoke of One North East, the RDA covering Newcastle. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister stated last Friday, an early task of this Government will be to reform and refocus regional support and the RDAs. Therefore, we will be looking at all the RDAs. He stated that he will assign Ministers and senior MPs to some of our biggest cities with responsibility to work with local communities to help to drive forward economic development by ensuring that blockages in Whitehall are dealt with. We will certainly want to look at the RDAs—but I think that the RDAs in the north might be a special case.

With regard to electricity supply, the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, talked about a looming crisis. The noble Lord stressed that there had been, I believe, 17 Energy Ministers in the past 10 years. It seems, then, that while he rather politely put it as a looming crisis of our own making, it is possibly a crisis of the party opposite’s making if it was changing Ministers that often and not making the necessary decisions. We recognise that there is a need for a systemic approach to developing a framework that will both deliver energy security and meet our climate change objectives. We have proposed a set of interventions, including an emissions performance standard, that aim to deliver a secure, low-carbon, cost-effective and competitive energy sector. Our electricity market reform project will ensure that we deploy the right mechanisms in the right way at the right time.

A number of noble Lords talked about agriculture, principally in relation to problems that my noble friend Lady Byford raised about the Rural Payments Agency, which was also mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and others. I declare an interest as a recipient of funds from the RPA as a farmer. We are all aware of the problems within the agency, and the department will be seeing what it can do about dealing with them. We will also be looking at changes, as asked for by my noble friend the Duke of Montrose and others, in the common agricultural policy. I believe, and I think that everyone in this House would accept, that that means genuine reform of the policy. We will certainly push for that as and when we can.

Moving on to some of the issues raised about the Royal Mail and the postal services Bill by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, we understand the concerns on all sides about the future of the Royal Mail and the real affection in which it is held. However, the Government are now looking at the detail of how to ensure that the Royal Mail can benefit from a degree of private sector capital and discipline and how it can modernise—possibly, as I think one of the right reverend Prelates suggested, in partnership with employees. We will announce details of our plans in due course, but I stress that we will seek to modernise the Royal Mail in conjunction with its employees.

I shall say a quick word about transport, the final department that was covered. We had a great many suggestions from the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, some more radical than others. I think that he suggested a purge of an entire division within the Department for Transport; I am not sure quite how brutal that purge would be, but no doubt he can let us know.

We also heard comments from my noble friend Lord Glasgow about high-speed rail being not purely a local English matter but a British matter. Like my noble friend, I have an interest in high-speed rail in that I live more than three and a half hours away from London under the current regime. I refer the noble Earl to the commitments that were made in the coalition document: this will be a truly British high-speed rail network. At this stage, one has to say that the timing is another matter. These things are very expensive but the commitment is there and it is a commitment to a high-speed railway that would be truly British, rather than taking us merely as far as Birmingham or Manchester.

I end by saying, again, that I will in due course write to all noble Lords. I hope that I can answer all the questions that have been put before me. As my noble friend Lady Wilcox said earlier today, any sensible family or business knows the dangers of too much debt. The debt is the first thing that we must concentrate on. We cannot recover without reducing it. That will be the Government’s first aim. I was grateful for the endorsement of the noble Lord, Lord Myners, for that. We must do that while adhering to the values, as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said, of freedom, fairness and responsibility, and of knowing and respecting the value of our natural environment.