Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Young of Norwood Green
Lord Deben
My Lords, may I intervene for a moment? I was very impressed by that last speech and thought that it was presented exactly in a proper way—although I do not entirely agree with it, as it is not a charter for bad employers that is being placed in this clause. Let me give the Committee an example of when this clause would be very helpful. It is a real example but, for obvious reasons, I am putting it in a way that could not be traced back to an individual. Somebody had been working for a company for some years but was increasingly unable to cope with the work that they were given. Had that person gone to a tribunal, the details of that lack of ability would have had to be discussed at length because that would be necessary. The employer concerned was a good employer. He sought to give that individual the recompense which they might have got in a tribunal while avoiding the tribunal, which would have been particularly difficult. Under the law as it stands, that was very difficult to do.
All this measure does is to give an opportunity for employers to look for the best way to solve many of these problems. I can think of many occasions on which a perfectly legitimate and reasonable solution could be brought about in this way. After all, it is not a compulsion; it is perfectly possible for people to say, “I want to go to a tribunal”. Therefore, I do not understand why we feel that people are unable to make that choice, or why employers should be refused the possibility of offering that choice.
It seems to me that the Minister is right in saying that this is a very small change but I can think of a number of occasions on which good employers would be able to choose it very effectively. My one concern about this discussion is that we seem to be moving back to a concept whereby somehow or other any flexibility in the law is advantageous only to bad employers. The truth is that the law at the moment makes it more difficult for good employers to do the best thing. As somebody who has to deal with these matters, I believe that most employers in this country are good and that they seek to do things properly. This change will make it easier for good employers to behave properly in circumstances where the necessary paraphernalia of the law would be best avoided in the interests of the employee.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
I do not want anecdotally to try to assess whether the majority of employers are good, bad or indifferent. They occupy a spectrum. Many are good and others are not so good. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that settlements are currently made outside the tribunal. We do not need to go down this road. I am sorry but the only interpretation we can put on this is that it encourages bad employers. Where does it encourage proper appraisal procedures or proper training procedures? If we really thought that this was about restoring balance, encouraging good practices and good behaviour and encouraging extra employment opportunities, as my noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara said, then of course we would support it. However, in our view it does none of those things, which is why we strenuously oppose it.