Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Lucas

Monday 17th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, perhaps I may address my amendment in the group before we get too far into the speeches. I am addressing a rather different subject, which is to try to make sure that the wording in the Bill will encompass people who are part of the community because they volunteer in it and not because they work in it. I am thinking particularly of, say, a scout leader who has come into an area to create a new scout group. He may not be from the area but he will be an expert community organiser. In the process of this, he will have become someone who really knows and understands the community, and will be a valuable part of the forum. I very much hope that people like that will be included.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I hesitate to disagree with my noble friends on this subject but I would hope that the Minister will be careful before she automatically goes down the tempting line of adding cultural to the environment. The reason for that is very clear. First, I have to declare an interest: the division between the Department of the Environment and the Department for Culture was a huge mistake. But it was not made on the basis of a difference: it was made on the basis of personalities. It was set up in that way to provide particular jobs for particular people, which is why culture and sport were put together. As it was done by a Prime Minister whom I strongly supported, I do not think that people can complain about my point.

I do not think that the idea that there is an eternal justification for this distinction based on the division in government is acceptable. I understand the reason for it but it has some very dangerous aspects to it. Let me give a simple example. I have fought for a long time to protect the countryside in Suffolk—its environment and its beauty. Part of that is stopping the sea taking it away. One of the things that the previous Government did, which was wholly unacceptable, was to downgrade the nature of the heritage contribution to the environment by making the points that they scored when they came to discuss the issue of coastal defence. Without any discussion with the heritage lobby, they lowered the importance of heritage within the environment.

I cannot consider the environment without considering culture. I believe that “environment” is a word which covers our cultural heritage as much as it does—I am afraid I am going to insult people—woolly animals. One of the problems is that the environment is often talked about as if it is about woolly animals. It is not—it is about the whole ambience in which we live. To exclude culture from the environment, or to suggest that there is a distinction, seems to me to have very serious import. I would hope that a future Government would reunite the environment with culture. That is where it should be. It is much closer to that than, for example, the media, which seem to me to have only a tangential effect on it. Much of the media seems to me neither cultural nor environmental. I do not see that the media should therefore necessarily be in the same box. To be told that the future of legislation should be based on a mistaken decision in the past about divisions between Ministries seems to me to be a fault.

One of the problems the Government have got themselves into—I am sure my noble friend Lord Cormack will agree with this—is that some of the language that has been used in the context of planning has led people to believe that our commitment to our environment, be it the cultural environment or the natural environment, has been less than strong. I think that has subsequently been put right and has been remedied not only by my noble friend but by the Prime Minister and others. However, I beg my noble friend to be very careful about this. I know that the House wishes to move on, but I have stayed—I have not had temptation—for this amendment, because I think we have to stand firm on the statement that the environment is not just about the natural environment but that the urban environment, the cultural environment and the spiritual environment all fit in. If she gives way on this, I would argue that there ought to be amendments about the spiritual environment. We have had this before. If we are going to start dividing the environment up, I would find it unacceptable to leave the spiritual side of life out of the Bill. I am able to accept it because the word “environment” carries that meaning for me just as much as it implies the natural environment and the cultural environment.

I hope that the Government will take this very seriously and that those who lobby my noble friend Lady Hanham are told very clearly that if they have not managed to establish the idea that great poetry, plays, architecture and heritage are part of the environment, then they need to present their case more effectively.

Localism Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Lucas

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, there is an issue here with which I hope the Minister will be very careful. Local authorities need to be reminded all the time, and we have had some difficulty in the past in concentrating the Government’s mind on the place of local authorities in carrying through the nitty-gritty of fighting climate change. Unless we make sure that they understand that they are on the front line and that what they do contributes a huge amount to the totality, we are going to be in difficulty. I do not think that it would matter so much had we not taken quite some time to get that into the whole run of things. This was a big issue in earlier Bills, and I hope that the Minister will understand that there is a real appetite for her to be pretty tough about this and to make sure that local authorities recognise their role.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, notwithstanding my noble friend’s strictures, I think that this is a daffy amendment due to its wording. How can development ever achieve a reduction in greenhouse gas emissions? Building a house emits greenhouse gases. The process of development necessarily involves the emission of greenhouse gases, and when you have created something at the end of that process, that continues to emit greenhouse gases, even if it emits far fewer than would have been emitted with a development done some years ago. Proposed new paragraph (b) at the end of the amendment would do great things for East Anglia. You would be allowed to build only off-shore windmills, waiting for the day when the place flooded.

House of Lords: Use of Electronic Devices (AWC Report)

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Lucas

Thursday 10th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I very much look forward to using my new iPad, when I get one, on the Education Bill, which amends 17 Acts. I very much hope that the Chairman of Committees will confirm not only that we will have wi-fi access in the Chamber when we come to debate that Bill in May, so that I can get at those documents, but also that we will have easy access to statutes in force, because, as he will remember from his days as a Minister or a Back-Bencher, the Acts that one can have printed in the Printed Paper Office are nothing like those that we are amending. Such access would therefore be immensely useful.

I find rather strange the worry expressed in paragraph 8 about having access to things that are not generally available to participants in proceedings by other means. One of the great reasons why I come to this Chamber is that it is full of people who know things that I do not know and understand things that I do not understand. Are we not supposed to have an equality of arms in this place? The point about being here is that you have access to a lot of people who know things that you do not. If someone happens to know something because they have looked it up on the internet or consulted an authority, rather than having done it in the Library five minutes before, I really do not see the problem.

We should allow ourselves to think about how we are going to catch up with the Commons when it comes to allowing participation by the public. The Commons is now allowing public participation in its Committee stages. Committees accept outside briefing from all sorts of people; they often hold open days when people can come and give evidence in front of them. We cannot do that with our committee system, because we use Committees of the whole House, but lots of people watch our proceedings live on television. If they were submitting to a public site comments on what was going on, why not allow us to read them so that we might see what they were saying and pick up the ideas that they might have? I understand the noble Lord’s difficulty with having us quoting people whom we are picking up off Twitter or some blog, but merely to gain insights and intelligence from people who may have vast practical experience and happen to be watching us on television would be a good thing.

I am grateful to my noble friends for making me feel, for the first time in a while, that I am a member of the younger generation.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I support what has just been said. Perhaps I may suggest also that making a virtue of being out of date is really not helpful for this House. Let us transpose this debate to the time when writing came in. It was perfectly true that writing might have upset the person sitting next door—it might have taken your mind off the debate—but most of us now write to make notes in this House. Most of us use this electronic equipment—well, I hope that we do; those who do not perhaps are not really involved. It is silent; it is extremely helpful. I must say to my noble friend that the idea that it is better to be ignorant and make a speech where the fact is wrong than to look it up and make sure that you have got it right seems very peculiar. I am pleased that it will not matter, because we will all do it and nobody will be able to see. I hope that the privacy Acts and the Data Protection Act will stop people looking over our shoulder to see what we are looking up. We hear some speeches made in this noble House where perhaps playing Scrabble on our devices would be a better alternative. This House does itself no good in making a virtue out of obscurantism. We either do things properly, which means using the wonderful mechanisms that we have, or we must accept the likelihood of being thought to be out of date.