Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Hunt of Chesterton

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I do not intend to have any dialogue at all, but I would just point out that it is the local authority that decides where a 30 mile an hour limit should be. Many of them overdo it and that is a pity, but I put up with that. It is their right. I am merely saying that I do not think that the clause as drafted would have the most local effect. I would prefer the clause to give powers. I want powers to be given and then people can make up their own minds. That is not what this clause does and I am sure that it could be done in such a way as to satisfy both of us. There is not much point in us having a dialogue, but can we please have a local solution?

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab)]

I think we may be about to have a dialogue. I used to be a councillor in Cambridge and we spent a lot of time stopping people driving over 30 miles an hour because of Mr Toad characters who wanted to go at 40 miles an hour.

If we go too far down this road we would have to have a little leaflet about every town that we visit about parking on the pavement or not parking on the pavement. In the country as a whole, we need to have some broad rules. If a city does not allow you to park on the pavement, that should be stated very clearly as you enter the city. It is very important to have broad rules in a country, otherwise we begin to be like countries several hundred years ago when every city had different rules. We should have a broad rule and then local authorities should have the power to exempt, but there needs to be some information.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Hunt of Chesterton

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, although the amendment is entirely good hearted—I quite understand the reason for it, and the problem it seeks to address is a serious one—I fear that I follow the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, in thinking that the difficulty with which we are faced is a belief that, somehow or other, by passing laws we can solve every problem. That is the kernel of this issue.

The vast majority of people who hold any kind of firearms licence—I declare an interest, as I am one of them—are law abiding and go to huge trouble to ensure that the firearms do not get into the wrong hands, that they are properly locked up, and so on. Already, the very considerable time spent on checking people who have never given any reason for complaint is a source of irritation—although combined with some understanding—to large numbers of people. We must recognise that we already have a very significant amount of regulation in this area.

We have to ask whether any further regulation of this kind, any further step taken in this direction, will do what is intended. I fear that I come to the conclusion that it will not. One of the difficulties is that those with bad intent seem to be much more able to acquire the means to put that intent into action than we would expect, if that is not our way of life. We rather naively sit here thinking that if we write the right legislation, somehow or other it will corral such people.

I have great sympathy with my noble friend who has to answer this debate, but I say to him that we have a long history of doing things because we feel that “something must be done”, even if what is done is not helpful but causes considerable expense and further aggravation. I ask him to be extremely careful and to make his response very balanced. We all have sympathy with the intentions of the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, but I suspect that this is not the answer to the problem.

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab)]

My Lords, the worrying thing about the remarks made by my noble friend Lady Smith is the idea that the police decide whether to prosecute on the basis of their chances of winning or losing some court case. That is extremely worrying. It means that the law as put into practice depends on someone’s estimate of whether the police should deal with somebody who might sue them, and who has a big enough legal budget to be able to do that. This seems to call into question the whole legal basis of the way we operate. I very much hope the Minister will explain the situation and say that decisions are not being taken according to the chances in the law court. That seems a complete negation of how we are supposed to operate our society.

Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Hunt of Chesterton

Thursday 11th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

My Lords, when we were discussing the previous energy Bill, I asked the Minister whether it included the word “ventilation”. Heating and energy involve insulation, heat and ventilation. The Minister asked the people behind him, who said that the Bill did not have that word in it. I was then assured that ventilation would be covered in secondary legislation or regulations. This matter is partly to do with ventilation. If it would be easier to accept the amendment by saying that it is an application of ventilation, which is part of energy, so be it.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, we ought to help the Minister on this. I suspect that I know what advice she has been given, and it is important to warn her about it. I will express that warning very carefully.

In the 19th century there was a scandal when people bought wallpaper that had a colouring based on arsenic. Large numbers of people died. The Government consistently refused to outlaw arsenic in the manufacture of that wallpaper. In the end, it was the fact that people ceased to buy the wallpaper that stopped the damage. The Government did not change the law until 1974. Therefore, there is a history of Governments not doing what they ought to do at the time they ought to do it. I was fascinated to read some of the evidence that the Government gave about why they were not doing it. Noble Lords will not be surprised that the argument was, first, that there is no need for regulation in this area; secondly, that it will be expensive; thirdly, that there is no call for it; fourthly, that people ought to be able to make these decisions themselves; and, fifthly, that the science is not quite proven. Have we not heard those arguments before, and will we not hear them again?

I suggest to my noble friend that this is a genuinely serious issue that could be solved. Lives can be saved at a cost that is significantly lower than it used to be, because government is enabling people to go into these premises for all sorts of other reasons. If the Minister has been advised that it is inappropriate to have legislation in this area—of course, I do not know whether she has been—I would pick up on the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. Anyone who has a gas fire installed is always forced to install further ventilation, even if it is utterly unnecessary. We already have legislation of a very detailed kind. If you wanted to put a gas fire in this Room, even though it may be very draughty, you would have to put a ventilating spot at the top there because that is what the law says.

I am not suggesting that we should be in any way as prescriptive as that. We should not say what kind of alarm there should be, except to say that it should be effective, and we should certainly be willing to allow alterations to the text of the amendment, because I am not expert enough to know whether it would do the job. I hope my noble friend will understand that this is one of those issues in which everybody involved has to say to themselves, “Am I prepared to allow people to die when I could stop it?”. That must be of great importance. We have to ask ourselves, individually, as Members of the House of Lords, officers of the department and Ministers, “Am I prepared not to act when action will save lives?”. That is not acting in some extreme way, or some awful health and safety nonsense. The very simple fact is that modern equipment needs this. It ought to be part of the deal. No deal should be done without it. In other circumstances, it is precisely like stopping people working in unsafe conditions in factories. We do that as a matter of course.

Lastly, it would be quite wrong not to use the opportunity of the Bill to do this on the basis that there might be another opportunity, another Bill or another place. We can use this Bill—the provision falls within the Long Title. There is no reason why we should not do it here; it is an appropriate place to put it. I very much hope that my noble friend will accept what is a really valuable contribution and play her part—and ours—in ensuring that next year a whole lot of people who would have been dead are alive.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan]

I remember being a lorry driver’s mate in the 1960s when I was a student. As a consequence of a Labour Government’s legislation, the haulage companies were trying to introduce the “spy in the cab”. That is now regarded as a very important health and safety measure. At the time it was not very well presented. If we can get an understanding and an appreciation by government of the dangers of the overload of information that could emerge, the public could be educated on the beneficial uses of it and made aware of the dangers—of which the civil liberties lobby could take account—the anxiety that parts of the press might have about the rollout of smart meters would in large measure be mitigated.

Therefore, while I appreciate the probing character of this amendment, it would benefit the process if the Government gave us positive indications today that if this is defective, or if it is otherwise necessary, amendments could be presented at a later stage in the appropriate format. We would do well to keep this in mind even if we do not get completely uptight about it.

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

I would like to speak to Amendment 51AA, which I tabled with the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth.

I was not at Second Reading but I have been listening to some of the Committee’s sittings. I went to a meeting last week at University College Energy Institute which discussed the difficulties people will have—up and down the country—with the new Energy Bill, which has many laudable objectives. I recalled at this meeting the case of one noble Earl finding that his electricity statement was five pages long. My son-in-law, who works in a green energy company, comments on the great difficulties people have when installing new green systems: heating, insulation, flood-prevention, and so on.

So how are people going to understand it? There seems to be a feeling we are not yet, and perhaps never will be, a society that gets it all on the internet or from a phone call. Perhaps we need to go back to what used to be quite a familiar sight on the high street: the energy showroom. Not only could you see a range of electrical apparatus, you could show your bill to someone. These showrooms were the front office for the energy company.

Our suggestion in this amendment is that the Secretary of State makes adequate provision for the universal availability of information, in order to enable domestic energy consumers to make effective decisions about their energy usage, including information relating to installation, running costs and monitoring equipment— that last point refers to smart meters. People studying smart meters realise they are going to be a source of great difficulty to many people.

My suggestion, therefore, is that we should have energy showrooms up and down the UK’s high streets, where empty shops give organisations such as councils, the Government and energy companies the opportunity to provide places offering this sort of information. As I have explained, it is important that in these places there are people who can provide information.

Like all good ideas this idea builds on the wide variety of existing initiatives run by councils and voluntary bodies. However, the Government should take it as a general responsibility to encourage, where possible, and to provide funding, where necessary, to ensure that these energy showrooms, or information centres, become available. The idea is that in such a place you could not only see technology but make a decision about spending more money on insulation or on heating.

It is true that, under the Green Deal, there are approved operatives who can come and visit you, but that is a second stage. You would really like to see a rather broad overview of all the possibilities as well as having somewhere where you could find out about the bills coming through to you. We have been talking about fuel poverty, which is a complex issue and will be dealt with in many different ways. Again, you need a real person to do it. I know people who work in the CAB, and I fear that the CAB will be overloaded with people trying to ask questions about their energy bills. The effect will be such a big ramp, it will be necessary to have additional or separate places for energy.

One of the other points is who would do this. Well, there are lots of people out there seeking jobs. This would be a rather interesting, useful and perhaps economical, way for people who have technical skills, abilities and inclinations to provide this kind of information. Anybody working in such an energy showroom would of course develop skills that they could quite quickly apply elsewhere, so it might be a practical way of upgrading the skills of many people with a direct objective.

Of course, the information services are available on the internet and via helplines but, speaking for myself, I always much prefer to go and buy something from a shop and talk to a person. Although I am a computer person and use a Japanese supercomputer, when it comes to my bill I like to go and talk to somebody down the street. I am not sure if the noble Viscount, Lord Ridley, is in his place, but people like him who go down to their electricity showroom might also like to get some government information about climate change from approved sources. When you go to a doctor’s surgery you learn about your health and how to change your lifestyle, and you learn about science and medicine. Maybe we should be hearing a variety of views, but it seems to me that these would be climate change centres as well as energy showrooms.

[Lord Deben]

I was just wondering how the noble Lord would make provision for the views of certain people who find that most of the information given at these centres will be somehow or other not to be trusted? Will he have a special little place on the side with a notice up that says “Contrarians”? If so, will he take some care to ensure that what they have said had at least some connection with the truth?

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

I was going to suggest that, in an objective way, you present the official view but you might say that there are some areas where there are questions, as there are in science. However, I am sure that if these centres were formed, the Committee on Climate Change would be able to give excellent advice on how these centres might be used. The other point, as we learnt this afternoon, is the question of safety, including the safety of carbon monoxide and so on. Again, you could have that information at these places.

Secondly, as I have commented before in the House of Lords, I visit the Netherlands quite often—I am a visiting professor there. They have an excellent European energy centre where you can see a tremendous array of all the different kinds of technologies and energy developments available. Of course, in the UK we have the Centre for Alternative Technology at Machynlleth in Wales. There was one in Swindon. Surely we should have many more of these centres where people can make these really quite complex choices between windmills—if you are a Prime Minister, you have one on your roof—solar collectors, heat pumps, biomass generation and new kinds of insulation. Two critical issues are insulation and flood damage. We really need centres up and down this country where people can go and see them, funded and managed by energy companies, non-profit bodies and councils.

These two suggestions are building on what exists already. They are in line with the Government’s big society—going to meet your fellow citizens dealing with energy is surely part of that scene. I believe that all political parties would support this kind of initiative in order to get the whole energy and climate change movement going faster and with less concern to people, and that people would make use of it. DECC should take action quite soon.