Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I would be the first to say to my noble friend that he is not an ordinary lawyer and nor is his wife—they are both very eminent lawyers. If they say it is a morass of unintelligible law obviously it must be. However, I am not sure it is as unintelligible as he claims. Obviously, we will look at this. As with all law, if consolidation can make matters simpler it is something that can be looked at. If it is a matter for departments—in this case the Home Office—we must look at it. As my noble friend will be aware, finding time for any legislative changes is always difficult.

[Lord Deben]

I hope that my noble friend will accept that it is not just a matter of making the law intelligible for lawyers. The people who suffer—if I may put it like that—under the immigration laws are people who ought to feel, at least as far as they can, that they have been dealt with fairly. We have had examples already this afternoon of situations that are so complex that it would be very hard to explain to one of these people that they have been dealt with fairly. If they leave this country I would be much happier if they said, “Of course, I ought to have got in but actually I was dealt with fairly”, than if they go away feeling, “I really don’t know why the blazes I wasn’t allowed in”. It seems to me hugely important that we get this formulation right.

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend is absolutely correct. It is always difficult to make sure that any law is understandable to the ordinary man or woman in the street or the ordinary man or woman on the Clapham omnibus. It is obviously, as our noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill put it, sometimes difficult to make the law intelligible to even the extraordinary lawyers let alone the ordinary ones. We try to make sure that it is as intelligible as possible but, as I think my noble friend Lord Lester is aware, even with some of the simplest laws one lawyer will take one view and another will take another view. These matters are often argued in the courts at some considerable length. We try to do what we can to make things as simple as possible. I hoped that this would be a very short amendment, and I hope that the reassurance that I offered to my noble kinsman will be sufficient for him to withdraw the amendment.

European Court of Justice: Jurisdiction

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Wednesday 20th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, as I think I made clear, I do not want to go through all 133 measures at this stage. The House would not like it at Question Time and it would not be an appropriate use of the limited time I have. We will make appropriate decisions on some of them beforehand if it is appropriate but the larger number is a matter for 2014.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that there is more than one view on this side of the House and that the way in which we should discuss this should be as unemotional and as factual as possible, and that we do not help the argument by bringing what can only be called extreme views into the discussion?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, to put it very simply, I agree with my noble friend that there is more than one view on this side of the House. There is possibly more than one view on the other side of the House and more than one view in all corners of the House. I agree with every aspect of what my noble friend has said.

Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) (Amendment) Regulations 2010

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

It is the noble Lord, Lord Deben. I think the noble Lord, Lord Demon, might be someone rather different. However, that might be for another life of my noble friend.

[Lord Deben]

I hope not.

[Lord Henley]

As far as I am aware, that was not the case. I shall write to the noble Baroness in due course about that.

The noble Baroness then asked about the waste review—again, a matter raised by my noble friend Lord Deben—and when it would come out. Our intention is to publish it in April of that year. April might turn out not to be a suitable month because, as the noble Baroness will know, there are local government elections on 5 May. It might therefore have to be published on 6 May, but I cannot give a precise date other than an assurance that it will be before June.

On independent auditing, again I can give an assurance that, as I made clear in my opening remarks, we are keen to try to reduce the burden on all businesses. So far as I am aware, the regulators were perfectly happy. I am not aware of any concerns. We will continue, as we have said in the past, to make sure that we strive to meet all our recycling targets, and our targets post-2012 will be considered as part of the review to be published in 2011.

I turn to the points made by my noble friend, and again I pay tribute to him for, as he reminded us, inventing these regulations, getting them through with the support of the French—something I hope we will be able to do more often in the future, but we are all learning new tricks at this stage—and getting them agreed. I am also grateful to him for stressing their efficacy and the competitiveness of our system. What my noble friend is saying in effect is that our targets for 2011-12 are not ambitious enough. The simple answer to that is that we will have the review and we want to make sure that we get everything right before we move on.

[Lord Deben]

I understand my noble friend’s view, but this is a continuing system. If you decide to stand aside for a relatively important period, as this would be—if my noble friend can tell me that it will be for only a year I shall be happier—the fact of history is that it takes you several years to catch up if you discover that you do want to raise the targets. As I cannot imagine that anyone in the coalition would want to lower the targets, it might be better to do this as we have done it for the past 12 years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

I can see my noble friend’s argument. In some respects we are continuing with that line. Perhaps I can offer him some encouragement in another field in this area. One of the other drivers of these things is the landfill tax. It will continue with its escalator, which is due to go on up to 2015, at which point I think it will reach £80 a tonne. It is certainly a driver for all those involved in waste when considering how to handle waste. What happens to the tax after that, as my noble friend is perfectly well aware, is not a matter on which I can comment. No doubt colleagues in the Treasury will look at the efficacy of that particular tax because it is one of the most successful taxes that has ever been created in changing behaviour.

My noble friend also said that he has been listening to those who advise him and that he wants the Government also to listen to them. He said that if he was wrong he would come to me, as he put it, covered in sackcloth and ashes and admit it. If we are wrong, I see no reason why we cannot amend things later, but in the mean time we want to get the waste review right. Once we have done that we can look at these issues again.

[Lord Deben]

Can my noble friend assure me that nothing will stop him—let me put it as delicately as that—coming back next year with a revision, or does he really mean that the arrangements for the waste review will mean that it will be at least two years before he can change this?

[Lord Henley]

I cannot give my noble friend an absolute assurance because we want to consider the results of the waste review before we come to decisions. He will know that Governments can do a great deal of things as and when they wish, particularly after publishing a review. I certainly cannot give an assurance that we will do something. All I can say is that we might, if it was necessary. I would then come to the noble Lord in sackcloth and ashes to say “Mea culpa” and whatever else he wished me to say. I am not saying that we will do this; I am saying that it is always a possibility.

[Lord Deben]

Of course my noble friend cannot say that he will do it; indeed, that is not what I asked him. I asked him whether, if it turned out that it were necessary, he would do it. I am sure that he would. My question now is: if it were necessary, could he do it in the time, or could something in the circumstances make it impossible? If nothing in the circumstances would make it impossible, I am happy to rest on his good assurances and he need not say “Mea culpa” to me.

[Lord Henley]

I can never give an absolute guarantee; it would have to be a guarantee given by me at this stage. All that I am saying is that I believe that it would be possible if necessary. I might be wrong, but my noble friend will have to rest on that assurance. The important thing is that we think that it is right and proper to get these things sorted out, as we are doing now, for 2011-12, then publish our waste review and then take things forward and make further decisions thereafter. I know that my noble friend says that the price of glass has collapsed. We have seen that in the past and it has gone back up again. We have seen that with other recyclables. I think we can cope with that. These are not the only drivers in this field; as I mentioned, there is also the landfill tax. I do not believe that we face the problems that my noble friend suggests.

I hope, therefore, that the Committee will accept that at this stage it is right and proper that the regulations go through, and that we will consider them again in the light of the review, which will be published in the spring of next year.