Climate Change Act 2008 (2050 Target Amendment) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Wednesday 26th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

The order addresses setting a new target. Obviously, we will have to address the questions about how we achieve it. As I understood my noble friend’s question—I may have misunderstood him—he was concerned about our production of carbon as a country. He was addressing consumption and what one could therefore say was displaced production: consumption by means of importing things that might otherwise have been produced in this country. That is what I was trying to address, and I hope that the noble Lord will accept that. On his other point about the means by which we do that—whether we can also reduce levels of carbon by planting trees, carbon capture and storage, or whatever—I imagine that all these matters will come up, but that is another issue and not for the order.

I turn to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, because it might help if I say a few words now in advance of him, presumably, moving his amendment and then making a decision on what he wants to do with it. I believe that his amendment is unnecessary and that a bipartisan approach to the order is very important. As I put it earlier, this is something on which the bipartisan approach and the need to take people with us is important. Perhaps I can deal with the three points that he makes in his amendment.

On the first, I direct the noble Lord to the detailed and analytically rigorous report we have had from the Committee on Climate Change and assure him that it is just the start. We will build on the frameworks set out in our clean growth strategy and industrial strategy to deliver that target. As the climate change committee has acknowledged, those provide the right framework for action. In addition, our forthcoming White Paper will outline the Government’s vision for the energy system to 2050. On his second point, we are using the powers set out in the 2008 Act—an Act introduced by the Government of whom he was a supporter, and which again had cross-party support. The climate change committee’s report has also shown that that target is now feasible and deliverable, and can be met within the same cost envelope as the 80% target. I have also announced that the Treasury will publish a review on that point. On his final point, although emissions from international aviation and shipping are not formally included within the legislative target, we have made clear the need for action across the whole economy, including international aviation and shipping. As he knows, emissions from domestic flights and shipping are already covered by our existing domestic legislation—

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Henley]

If I may finish this sentence, I will give way. They are already covered by our existing domestic legislation and the Committee on Climate Change accounts for international flights in its advice to us on setting interim carbon budgets. That will continue to be the case for our more ambitious target.

[Lord Deben]

Does my noble friend wish to emphasise the fact that, under the arrangements here, shipping and aircraft emissions are included in our estimates and budgets so that, although how we will do it internationally may still be a matter for argument, the Government have committed that the net zero will cover emissions from aeroplanes and shipping?

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend is correct. I was trying to distinguish between domestic and international in the legislation that we already have. As I and my noble friend have made clear, both of them will continue to be covered in our interim budgets.

Today is just the start. We have laid a strong foundation in the clean growth strategy and the industrial strategy—a point borne out in the independent advice from my noble friend Lord Deben as chairman of the Committee on Climate Change. As I think all noble Lords will accept, achieving net-zero emissions will require hard choices and leadership. It will require us to agree on the ends and strive for consensus on the means, which is why I stress how important it is to take people with us. It will require us to continue to transform our economy, our homes, our transport, our businesses and how we generate and use energy.

Our forthcoming energy White Paper, which noble Lords must wait for, will outline the Government’s vision for the energy system in 2050 and a series of actions to enable that system to evolve during the next decade to achieve our 2050 aims. We will lay out plans across other sectors in the months and years ahead. With continued cross-party support and collaboration across all sectors in society, we can deliver this. I commend the draft order to the House.

Amendment to the Motion

Patents (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Monday 14th January 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

What is more, that one person was selected but clearly not trusted.

[Lord Henley]

I was going to leave this to the end and I suspect that any intervention I make will just prolong these proceedings, but for the sake of assisting the noble Lord at this stage, I can assure him that consultation participants on the technical view of the draft instrument included the BIA, the ABPI, the IP Federation, the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys, the British Generic Manufacturers Association and the agrochemicals industry.

Retail Trade: Online Suppliers

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

We recognise this. As the noble Lord will be aware, we have made changes to the rates system to provide some help to the high street and will continue to do so. We have also established the Future High Streets Forum, which is chaired by my honourable friend the Minister for the Northern Powerhouse and Local Growth, Jake Berry. That will look at what we can do with retailers, but it is obviously up to retailers, as I said, to adapt to a marketplace changing as a result of consumer demand.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that this is a dangerous situation and requires urgent action? I refer noble Lords to my entry in the register of interests. Retailers have to pay business rates, which means that they start off at a significant disadvantage. They have to contribute to the producer responsibility levies—another disadvantage. They have to pay the proper apprenticeship levy—another disadvantage. We cannot wait for a general statement; we must act now. The latest proposition is that retail trading may decline by 22% in the next year. It is time for the Government to move urgently.

[Lord Henley]

I made it clear that we have made changes in the Autumn Budget, with measures worth £2.3 billion by cutting business rates and trying to bring a degree of fairness to the system. There are limits to how far one can go and one must accept that a lot of what is happening is a result of what consumers want. It is obviously up to the retail sector itself to adapt and change in the face of changing consumer and social trends. The Government are doing what we can. That is why I mentioned the Future High Streets Forum, chaired by my honourable friend and why we have announced changes to rates. Thereafter, it must be for the retail sector itself to see what it can do to change.

European Structural and Investment Funds

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Tuesday 12th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, the noble Baroness should listen very carefully to my answers. The guarantees I was giving were about the future of the shared prosperity fund. I can give categorical guarantees about European structural funds for 2014-20. Those guarantees will continue to stand, as has been made clear by my right honourable friends in another place. They will stand in a no-deal scenario, and all projects that were signed up to before the Autumn Statement of 2016 will be guaranteed by the Government after the United Kingdom leaves the EU.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has said that in the future these decisions will be made by Britain, not the European Union. Can he explain precisely the difference in criteria between those used by the European Union at the moment, and those that he will use, and how, if he uses different criteria, he will also meet the promise that all those places that now receive money will continue to do so?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I did not say there would necessarily be different criteria. I said—and I am sure my noble friend would agree with this—that the decisions would be made by us and not by the EU.

Corporate Governance

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Tuesday 29th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, there is much that I can agree with in the noble Lord’s response to the Green Paper. He is right to say that we should keep a light touch in these matters and that there are inherent dangers in any statutory approach that one might take in that people then feel that they must simply obey the law and nothing but the law and go no further. It is right therefore that one should offer guidance and encouragement to take the right approach. That is why I sought to make it quite clear in my initial response that we are looking for a collaborative approach as we move along so that all parties, in business or wherever, feel that they can play a part in putting this together and thus achieve the right level of guidance in a code of corporate governance that everyone feels they can live with. As I say, I agree with much of what the noble Lord said.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the payments problem is much more urgent than any White Paper? Large companies are now pushing back the dates by which they pay smaller companies and the problem has never been as bad as it is today. Will the Government look at that separately from the Green Paper, because in the meantime many companies will go to the wall if we do not?

[Lord Henley]

I take it that my noble friend is referring to the problem relating to payments made by big companies to their suppliers down the line. He is right to draw attention to this issue and it is certainly something that I would want to pass on to my right honourable friend because, as he says, it can be a cause of major concern for those in the supply chain if they are not being paid in good time. As I say, I will pass that on.

Crime and Courts Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Wednesday 4th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I would be the first to say to my noble friend that he is not an ordinary lawyer and nor is his wife—they are both very eminent lawyers. If they say it is a morass of unintelligible law obviously it must be. However, I am not sure it is as unintelligible as he claims. Obviously, we will look at this. As with all law, if consolidation can make matters simpler it is something that can be looked at. If it is a matter for departments—in this case the Home Office—we must look at it. As my noble friend will be aware, finding time for any legislative changes is always difficult.

[Lord Deben]

I hope that my noble friend will accept that it is not just a matter of making the law intelligible for lawyers. The people who suffer—if I may put it like that—under the immigration laws are people who ought to feel, at least as far as they can, that they have been dealt with fairly. We have had examples already this afternoon of situations that are so complex that it would be very hard to explain to one of these people that they have been dealt with fairly. If they leave this country I would be much happier if they said, “Of course, I ought to have got in but actually I was dealt with fairly”, than if they go away feeling, “I really don’t know why the blazes I wasn’t allowed in”. It seems to me hugely important that we get this formulation right.

[Lord Henley]

My noble friend is absolutely correct. It is always difficult to make sure that any law is understandable to the ordinary man or woman in the street or the ordinary man or woman on the Clapham omnibus. It is obviously, as our noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Hill put it, sometimes difficult to make the law intelligible to even the extraordinary lawyers let alone the ordinary ones. We try to make sure that it is as intelligible as possible but, as I think my noble friend Lord Lester is aware, even with some of the simplest laws one lawyer will take one view and another will take another view. These matters are often argued in the courts at some considerable length. We try to do what we can to make things as simple as possible. I hoped that this would be a very short amendment, and I hope that the reassurance that I offered to my noble kinsman will be sufficient for him to withdraw the amendment.

European Court of Justice: Jurisdiction

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Wednesday 20th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, as I think I made clear, I do not want to go through all 133 measures at this stage. The House would not like it at Question Time and it would not be an appropriate use of the limited time I have. We will make appropriate decisions on some of them beforehand if it is appropriate but the larger number is a matter for 2014.

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, will the Minister confirm that there is more than one view on this side of the House and that the way in which we should discuss this should be as unemotional and as factual as possible, and that we do not help the argument by bringing what can only be called extreme views into the discussion?

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, to put it very simply, I agree with my noble friend that there is more than one view on this side of the House. There is possibly more than one view on the other side of the House and more than one view in all corners of the House. I agree with every aspect of what my noble friend has said.

Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) (Amendment) Regulations 2010

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Henley

Wednesday 17th November 2010 Grand Committee

[Lord Henley]

It is the noble Lord, Lord Deben. I think the noble Lord, Lord Demon, might be someone rather different. However, that might be for another life of my noble friend.

[Lord Deben]

I hope not.

[Lord Henley]

As far as I am aware, that was not the case. I shall write to the noble Baroness in due course about that.

The noble Baroness then asked about the waste review—again, a matter raised by my noble friend Lord Deben—and when it would come out. Our intention is to publish it in April of that year. April might turn out not to be a suitable month because, as the noble Baroness will know, there are local government elections on 5 May. It might therefore have to be published on 6 May, but I cannot give a precise date other than an assurance that it will be before June.

On independent auditing, again I can give an assurance that, as I made clear in my opening remarks, we are keen to try to reduce the burden on all businesses. So far as I am aware, the regulators were perfectly happy. I am not aware of any concerns. We will continue, as we have said in the past, to make sure that we strive to meet all our recycling targets, and our targets post-2012 will be considered as part of the review to be published in 2011.

I turn to the points made by my noble friend, and again I pay tribute to him for, as he reminded us, inventing these regulations, getting them through with the support of the French—something I hope we will be able to do more often in the future, but we are all learning new tricks at this stage—and getting them agreed. I am also grateful to him for stressing their efficacy and the competitiveness of our system. What my noble friend is saying in effect is that our targets for 2011-12 are not ambitious enough. The simple answer to that is that we will have the review and we want to make sure that we get everything right before we move on.

[Lord Deben]

I understand my noble friend’s view, but this is a continuing system. If you decide to stand aside for a relatively important period, as this would be—if my noble friend can tell me that it will be for only a year I shall be happier—the fact of history is that it takes you several years to catch up if you discover that you do want to raise the targets. As I cannot imagine that anyone in the coalition would want to lower the targets, it might be better to do this as we have done it for the past 12 years.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

I can see my noble friend’s argument. In some respects we are continuing with that line. Perhaps I can offer him some encouragement in another field in this area. One of the other drivers of these things is the landfill tax. It will continue with its escalator, which is due to go on up to 2015, at which point I think it will reach £80 a tonne. It is certainly a driver for all those involved in waste when considering how to handle waste. What happens to the tax after that, as my noble friend is perfectly well aware, is not a matter on which I can comment. No doubt colleagues in the Treasury will look at the efficacy of that particular tax because it is one of the most successful taxes that has ever been created in changing behaviour.

My noble friend also said that he has been listening to those who advise him and that he wants the Government also to listen to them. He said that if he was wrong he would come to me, as he put it, covered in sackcloth and ashes and admit it. If we are wrong, I see no reason why we cannot amend things later, but in the mean time we want to get the waste review right. Once we have done that we can look at these issues again.

[Lord Deben]

Can my noble friend assure me that nothing will stop him—let me put it as delicately as that—coming back next year with a revision, or does he really mean that the arrangements for the waste review will mean that it will be at least two years before he can change this?

[Lord Henley]

I cannot give my noble friend an absolute assurance because we want to consider the results of the waste review before we come to decisions. He will know that Governments can do a great deal of things as and when they wish, particularly after publishing a review. I certainly cannot give an assurance that we will do something. All I can say is that we might, if it was necessary. I would then come to the noble Lord in sackcloth and ashes to say “Mea culpa” and whatever else he wished me to say. I am not saying that we will do this; I am saying that it is always a possibility.

[Lord Deben]

Of course my noble friend cannot say that he will do it; indeed, that is not what I asked him. I asked him whether, if it turned out that it were necessary, he would do it. I am sure that he would. My question now is: if it were necessary, could he do it in the time, or could something in the circumstances make it impossible? If nothing in the circumstances would make it impossible, I am happy to rest on his good assurances and he need not say “Mea culpa” to me.

[Lord Henley]

I can never give an absolute guarantee; it would have to be a guarantee given by me at this stage. All that I am saying is that I believe that it would be possible if necessary. I might be wrong, but my noble friend will have to rest on that assurance. The important thing is that we think that it is right and proper to get these things sorted out, as we are doing now, for 2011-12, then publish our waste review and then take things forward and make further decisions thereafter. I know that my noble friend says that the price of glass has collapsed. We have seen that in the past and it has gone back up again. We have seen that with other recyclables. I think we can cope with that. These are not the only drivers in this field; as I mentioned, there is also the landfill tax. I do not believe that we face the problems that my noble friend suggests.

I hope, therefore, that the Committee will accept that at this stage it is right and proper that the regulations go through, and that we will consider them again in the light of the review, which will be published in the spring of next year.