Brexit: Environmental Regulation

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 4th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, my noble friend has hit on something absolutely crucial. We need to ensure that we lead. That is indeed why this country was the first in the world to introduce legally binding greenhouse gas emission targets. We were the first country to set a legally binding target to achieve net zero greenhouse gas emissions. All this is the direction of travel in which we wish to go. We should be ambitious about that; I agree with my noble friend.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Does my noble friend the Minister agree that all this works only if we do not undermine those things by agreeing international trading arrangements that allow other people to export into this country goods and services that do not reach the same standards? Is it not true that those in charge of international trade in this Government have not been as committed to our environmental standards as other members of the Government?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Well, this member of the Government is delighted to say that the United Kingdom is a world leader on animal welfare and environmental standards. We will not water down our standards as part of trade negotiations; I have said that before. We are committed to making sure that any future trade agreements work for consumers, farmers and businesses across the United Kingdom.

Plant Health (Amendment) (England) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Monday 25th March 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank all noble Baronesses who have contributed to this debate. I suspect that we are united in every particular of the essentials. I stress again that as the Minister with biosecurity in his remit, I could not place a higher importance on keeping our country safe from pests, disease and invasive non-native species, all of which cause immense damage to our natural ecosystems.

As a farmer in the Vale of Aylesbury I was very scarred myself, as a boy, by the loss of all the elm trees on the farm. Now, having planted ash trees over the years and seeing them depleted, no one could be unhappier about that situation. However, in 2012, when it materialised that all sorts of extraordinary things were happening, whereby ash seeds—I think it was even small saplings as well—were going to other parts of the EU to come back and bring Chalara with them, that precipitated a change in Defra and an understanding that, while animal health had rightly been given a very considerable priority, plant health needed to buck up and become as rigorous and as sharp. I could mention many names, but the appointment of the chief plant health officer, Professor Nicola Spence, was one repercussion of an understanding that we needed to do a lot better.

On the issue of bonding and sealed, or whatever word may be used, I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Young, that I was absolutely clear in the early stages of this situation that I too wanted reassurances. I am well aware that pests may arrive at a port and we may find them going all around the country because we have done something utterly stupid. I was assured, and I will go into further detail on the assessments, about why this was a sound and sensible thing for us to do.

I will go through the points in no particular order. My noble friend Lady Byford asked about existing fees and any changes. Existing fees will apply to these import inspections at inland premises, so we will follow the existing fee arrangements.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, asked about the estimated number of consignments and inspections. I want to be clear that by inspection we would mean physical inspection of a consignment of plant material, rather than simply checks of the documents associated with it. In a no-deal scenario the majority of plants and plant products imported from the EU, including fruit, vegetables and cut flowers, will continue to enter the UK freely without physical inspections, as currently. Those goods managed under the EU plant passport regime, such as certain species for planting and shrubs, will require an internationally recognised phytosanitary certificate. There will be no physical inspection of the goods at the border, although our risk-based inland surveillance system will continue. A documentary and identity check will take place remotely, without requiring that goods are stopped either at the border or inland awaiting checks. The importer will be required to pre-notify the Animal and Plant Health Agency about details of a consignment of regulated plant material. At this stage we are, in a sense, keeping what we have for certain regulated plants from within the EU—in other words, the phytosanitary certificate.

The important area—if the Committee does not mind my setting this out, because it is terribly important to establish the sequence—is that material originating in third countries that enters the UK via the EU without being checked in the EU will require a physical inspection in the UK, in the same way as we currently physically inspect material coming directly from third countries. So whether or not the material enters the UK at the ro-ro ports, we will inspect the goods at trade premises inland that have been authorised in line with biosecurity requirements. At this stage we do not have data on the current number of plants and plant products entering the UK from third countries via the EU which will require an inspection, but we estimate that there will be around 14,500 consignments per year.

My noble friend Lady Byford asked about the location of inland premises. They are located across the United Kingdom. We do not have to hand the exact locations of the 33 premises currently being organised but I can provide that information in due course. I should say, and this issue arose in another connection, that a lot of the current facilities are around Heathrow because obviously a lot of the plants from third countries come in there. I know that there have previously been considerations about the fact that it is London-centric; that is because often the bulk of plant material from third countries has come in that way. I have been to the excellent inspection unit alongside Heathrow, where so much of the biosecurity protection takes place with imports directly from third countries.

My noble friend and the noble Baroness, Lady Young, asked about the costs. It is the Government’s policy to charge fees for many publicly-provided goods and services. The standard approach is to set fees to recover the full cost of service delivery. This relieves the general taxpayer of the costs so that they are properly borne by users who benefit from the service. Charging for plant health services is consistent with the principle that businesses using these services should bear the cost. The costs incurred in any 12-month period are recovered by fees levied in the following 12 months. For example, fees for 2019-20 will be based on the costs incurred in providing services for the period from April 2018 to March 2019.

My noble friend Lady Byford and, I think, the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, raised transporting, moving inland and the biosecurity risk. As I have said, experts both from the APHA and within Defra have made it clear that in their assessment, under the containerised, sealed and bonded arrangements, these materials will be secure until they are inspected.

The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, asked about the volume of the imports from the EU that would be subject to the new process. We estimate that around 0.75 million tonnes of regulated plant products from the EU, out of around 7 million tonnes of total annual imports, will require a phytosanitary certificate. On the question that she also raised on concerns about blockages at points of entry, we are seeking to do this because the paramount concern is that we keep the country biosecure. Clearly, though, where inland premises have been inspected and are both suitable to the inspectors and secure, we have been advised that there is no biosecurity risk from that.

I want to respond to another point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. She asked about the dangers of spreading pests. It is clear that we must ensure that that does not happen; that is the whole point of our carrying on with the EU system of requiring pre-notification with phytosanitary certificates for certain EU plant products. That is an important pre-notification system to enable APHA to be aware of arrivals. Moreover, part of the regime is that random checks are made of plant materials. We place the greatest importance on this area.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked about the risks. She talked about ash dieback; the outbreak has precipitated an enormous amount of research—here I am moving away slightly from the statutory instrument before us. Research now being undertaken into tree health is remarkable for both its public and private funding, through universities. The John Innes Centre has undertaken research into the genome of the ash tree which gives us hope that perhaps 15% to 20% of the trees may have some tolerance. We can ensure the future of the ash tree from them. This is an important area and we will work with evidence to develop a risk-based, proportionate approach to plant health measures.

In the past we have introduced precautionary national measures to protect the UK against threats. For example, the UK produced stronger national legislation against xylella in response to the situation elsewhere in the EU. We have also introduced national legislation to protect against oak processionary moth. In fact, during my early months in this post I am afraid that I made myself unpopular with our very nice Spanish friends when dealing with the Epitrix potato pest by requiring further washing because we were concerned about the arrival of unwashed new potatoes at certain times. Moreover, of course we will work with the devolved Administrations to ensure there is protection across the United Kingdom.

I turn to the question of Northern Ireland. As we have discussed in a number of debates, the island of Ireland is an epidemiological entity for obvious reasons. In fact, when we looked at aquaculture, we found that there are fewer fish pests in the island of Ireland than there are in Great Britain. It is terribly important that the all-Ireland concept is seen in that context because pests and diseases are not respecters of borders. It is intended that a similar SI will be made for Northern Ireland. The specific legislation will align with our own legislation to ensure a consistent approach to plant health. It will be laid before day one.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Can my noble friend explain how we will keep that legislation in line with what happens in the south?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As I said to my noble friend, the whole point in raising the single entity is that is why it is so important that there is close co-operation. If my noble friend had seen our earlier consideration of Northern Ireland matters, he would have heard about the very strong relationship between bodies in the north and the south on almost the whole of the natural ecosystem area. That is tremendously important.

My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked about changes to the list of regulated pests. A plant health risk register is publicly available and I am afraid to say that currently we have 1,000 pests recorded on it. That somewhat bears out what the noble Baroness, Lady Young, said. I have regular meetings with Grown in Britain, and which side of the argument on the European Union one might be on is, frankly, irrelevant. We need to be more biosecure within the United Kingdom. We all need to be more biosecure around the world because our laxity in these matters has already caused enormous problems around the world and we need to attend to it.

Veterinary Medicines and Animals and Animal Products (Examination of Residues and Maximum Residue Limits) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Just to make it easy.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

This may well come into the trade and animal-related products SI.

Floods and Water (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 22nd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I admire the noble Baroness’s inquiring mind. Clearly, that will be relevant to the environment Bill in the next Session, and to many of the deliberations in the other place and here. We are embarking on a very important move and I invite your Lordships to be fully engaged. We want to get it right for the long term.

On EU standards, I absolutely get the point expressed —and with passion—by the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Teverson, and my noble friend Lord Deben. But it may be that a future Government of this country want to go further than the EU. We should be less pessimistic about our future in this country, whatever we think about arrangements. There may be intricacies of our national life that mean we want to go further than the EU standards of the time. I get the point, however, and of course we want to safeguard and improve the record that has been achieved. For example, there are some very good statistics on how bathing waters have improved. I particularly admire what Surfers Against Sewage has done—it has been tremendous in raising the public profile of this issue—and I also appreciate what many other organisations have done, in a European context and in the UK. However, the withdrawal Act ensures that existing standards transposed into domestic law will be retained. We want to maintain these high regulatory environmental standards and, as I said, improve on them wherever possible.

On the question of water supply fittings—

[Lord Deben]

Of course my noble friend is saying exactly what he and I would want. But I remind him that when we were not in the European Union—and if we had not been in the European Union—he and I would have been on the same side, pushing Governments to raise their standards and they would not have raised them. Therefore, we can only go on the past. We are where we are because we were in the European Union. We can have hopes for the future if we leave the European Union but, frankly, I doubt them. We have always been much less good at these things when we were not in the European Union because the Treasury always had a jolly good reason to stop good people like him and me fighting for what we believed in.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

When I read the first draft of the Explanatory Memorandum, my thoughts were that lawmaking can be extremely complicated and that the drafting sometimes takes further reading. The clear message on what we want to do through this SI and the earlier instrument is that we want to safeguard this country’s environmental standards. That simple concept sometimes involves fairly intricate matters, so I say to the most reverend Primate that I like and appreciate simplicity, but there are moments when we need to make sure that the law is produced in an intelligible and understandable form.

[Lord Deben]

Before my noble friend sits down—

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I have not sat down yet.

[Lord Deben]

No. I was hoping to say something before my noble friend sat down.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I have not sat down but I think that we are starting to elongate this matter and I ought to conclude.

Ivory Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 12th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, seeks to insert into the Bill a commitment that the Secretary of State would consult on extending the scope of the ban to include ivory from hippopotamus, walrus and narwhal as soon as practicable after Royal Assent. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester and to the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, for their remarks.

As noble Lords will be aware, this matter was discussed at some length in the other place. I want to reassure the noble Lord and the noble Baroness of the Government’s intention on this point and to explain how the existing provision in the Bill may be applied. The Bill will prohibit the commercial dealing in living species of elephant—namely African and Asian elephants. Clause 35 provides a delegated power to allow the Secretary of State to extend the Bill to cover other ivory-bearing species through a regulation. We recognise concerns that, by banning the trade in elephant ivory, there may be an unintended consequence of trade displacement on to other ivory-bearing species, such as hippopotamus, putting these species at greater risk, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester has outlined. It may be appropriate to use this power to protect these species if the evidence gathered supports such actions.

The Government have committed in the other place and in a public announcement that the Secretary of State will conduct an evidence-gathering exercise—for example, a public consultation—on or as soon as practicable after Royal Assent. It is in the Government’s interest to launch this exercise within this period. However, we will ensure this does not impact our timetable to get the elephant ivory ban in place. The representatives from the conservation NGOs which gave evidence during Committee in the House of Commons emphasised that, at this time, the Government’s priority should be the ban on elephant ivory.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

If I may ask a genuine question, how easy is it for all these officers that we have been talking about to distinguish the ivory from which an artefact came? Is it difficult, or is it always simple?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I shall have to take myself on a course of expertise. If through use of this power it was deemed, because of the consultation and the evidence that we had, that other ivory-bearing species should be encompassed in some form of legislation—which would clearly come before your Lordships for affirmative resolution—there would definitely need to be some understanding on the part of the enforcement officers as to differentiation and whether certain other species should be added. However, I must not take myself down a route of conjecture, although it is very a very valuable and important point. Perhaps after the enactment I should undertake myself some better understanding of the definition.

We should not act unless we have informed evidence—I think this is a point my noble friend Lord Deben would very much approve—so we can make a proper decision on whether the scope of the Bill should be extended to another species. As noble Lords will be aware, as a result of the government amendment in the other place, this delegated power has been extended from applying only to ivory-bearing species listed under CITES to applying to any ivory-bearing species. The CITES-listed species are currently narwhal, killer whale, sperm whale, walrus, and hippopotamus. The amendment brought all ivory-bearing species—for instance, the warthog—into the scope of the delegated power. All those species are therefore in scope of the delegated power and may, therefore, be subject to an evidence-gathering exercise.

As I have said, we have committed to carrying out an evidence-gathering exercise on or as soon as practicable after Royal Assent. To clarify an important point, and reassure the noble Lord, the delegated power also enables the Secretary of State to take action in the future. That is very important because of what your Lordships have already said about the possible unintended consequence of other species becoming poached because of the elephant ivory ban. For instance, a subsequent evidence-gathering exercise could be carried out on the scope of the ban if necessary. This is an important element of us ensuring that, on all ivory-bearing species, we will have the ability to act through this legislation, although this legislation before us today is precisely about the African and the Asian elephant.

I hope that, with the explanation I have given, the noble Lord feels reassured that the Government are committed to carrying out an evidence-gathering exercise on or as soon as practicable after Royal Assent, and that this will consider extending the scope of the ban to other ivory-bearing species. On that basis, I hope the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

Agriculture: Gene Editing

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 6th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, under the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill we will bring the EU regulatory framework into UK law. As I said, this matter is for consideration on a case-by-case basis. We already know that the John Innes Centre in Norwich, for instance, is undertaking work on oilseed rape. This is all about ensuring that the 15% to 25% of the pods that shatter are no longer shattered by gene editing. There are all sorts of ways in which we can gain enormous benefits from gene editing, and that is why I am encouraged by what the Advocate-General has said.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that gene editing plays a very important part in helping agriculture to fight climate change, and does he accept that we need to move fast on that if we are to meet the needs that the Government have adumbrated in their Clean Growth Strategy?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. The work undertaken in this country and around the world on a case-by-case basis could be immensely important in terms of climate change and hunger, as well as in dealing with disease and pests in animals and plants. We in this country believe that we should advance these techniques.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Thursday 5th February 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben]

I do not know whether my noble friend will understand this, but it is often difficult to know the division between Westminster and Camden and between Westminster and the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. Unless we have a London-wide agreement, it puts buskers in an extremely difficult position. I am sure that my noble friend, like me, has wrongly put money in a parking meter because different local authorities have different times for parking. Is it not sensible to say that if there are going to be special local authority arrangements, they should at least cover the whole of the central part of London so that people do not need to take a local authority map to discover that in Camden they would be arrested but in Westminster—a very good council—they would not?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That is extremely helpful of my noble friend as it allows me to reinforce the efforts of the excellent Mayor of London as the honest broker in trying to get a London-wide code of practice. I think that there have been very constructive discussions with local authorities. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones will have more detail on that than I do. However, I think that that is precisely the way forward that my noble friend Lord Deben would find most agreeable.

Busking is undoubtedly a legitimate activity which often contributes to the vibrancy of a local area, and, per se, we do not believe that it does need control. However, it is important that backstop powers are available for specific circumstances. I know that this will not suit many of my noble friends but I hope that I have explained our reasons. Picking up the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, we have looked at this with the Law Commission. I hope that, on that basis, and for the other reasons I have given, my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 11th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his amendment. The Government are clear that busking can enrich a community’s quality of life and generate a positive atmosphere enjoyed by many people. Regrettably, though, street entertainment can sometimes be a source of conflict between buskers, businesses and residents. Complaints of noise, nuisance and anti-social behaviour can arise, and police and local councils have to respond and try to find solutions.

The Government do not start from the position that busking requires regulation and control. Busking should be about freedom of the individual, and only if necessary should local action be taken to curb certain excesses. To answer the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, although I am still waiting for some advice, there is actually no general legislation on the subject of busking but local authorities can have policies on it, including codes of conduct or permit regimes, and occasionally by-laws and local authority legislation, such as the London Local Authorities Act 2000. That Act enables London councils to license busking. Indeed, it is a matter for London councils to determine whether or not they utilise these powers.

The amendment proposes that a government Bill should seek to overturn private legislation promoted by London local authorities and passed by Parliament. If we were to accept the amendment, the Government would indeed be saying that London councils should not have the option to decide whether or not to license busking based on local circumstances. Indeed, we feel that this is not a subject for top-down government solutions; it is for local authorities to determine fair, reasonable and transparent policies in relation to managing our streets.

As far as the Metropolitan Police Act 1839 is concerned, while Section 54(14) is rarely used, the Metropolitan Police need to retain the provision to give their officers the tactical option of dealing with what they have called “busking-related offences”. We are seeking to strike a balance between freedom to busk and having to control nuisance caused by persons with no musical intent.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

I have often had discussions with the Metropolitan Police. I find the phrase “busking-related offences” precisely the kind of comment always made when you are suggesting that things might be changed. Perhaps the Minister could describe a “busking-related offence” that is not covered by any other legislation.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My noble friend always intervenes to engage the Committee in important issues with his own touch. It is important to say that I know what he is saying but that, at the same time, if the Metropolitan Police need to have the ability to ensure that they have some means by which they can have assistance as regards a certain possible alleged assistance, for all the cynicism that there may be about the Metropolitan Police, we have to place our trust in them.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 4th November 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, used the word “whizzing”. I am not sure that anyone could start placing the ticket on a vehicle going at 80 or 90 miles an hour on the motorway. However, I take his point more seriously than perhaps is suggested by making that instant judgment as to why it would not be possible to adhere to these principles for someone going at 80 or 90 miles an hour on the motorway.

[Lord Deben]

Does this not give my noble friend the opportunity to go back to the department to explain why there is unhappiness? It was said that the reason why you cannot affix the notice is that the car is travelling too fast, but there are other reasons, too. In the part of the country from which we both come, a village school may have real problems with people parking in the wrong places. The ideal answer in that distant place, where it is difficult to have someone on duty all the time, may be to have a camera. The idea that Suffolk Coastal District Council or Mid Suffolk District Council is capable of having people standing outside every village school—and many of them have this problem—is not sensible. Is that not the same sort of issue as dealing with people travelling at 60 or 80 miles per hour? There is no other way of doing it, but we have to do it.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My noble friend is always extremely persuasive. Clearly, the record of these discussions will go back to the department.

In his amendments, the noble Lord seeks to place in the Bill the list of exempted areas where local authorities can continue to use CCTV to issue tickets in the post. The department does not think that it would be expedient to set the exemptions in primary legislation. It is conceivable that exemptions could be increased or reduced in the future, so it might be more desirable to include them in secondary legislation. Everyone will have their own view on what is the right balance for the use of CCTV, whether that is in parking, as your Lordships are debating today, or more widely. The Government have given careful consideration to the list of exemptions and, in particular, have reflected the views of those who responded to the consultation.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also seeks to introduce a requirement for impact assessments to be carried out for the provisions. As I am sure he will know, the Government have been clear in their determination to reduce the impact of rules and regulations on businesses and policymakers. Indeed, the Government’s Better Regulation Framework Manual, which was published in July 2013, states that impact assessments are required only for measures that regulate or deregulate business or concern the regulation of business. This clause applies only to local authorities that carry out parking enforcement, so we believe that no impact assessment is required.

Bishop of Guildford: Appointment

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Thursday 3rd July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am not sure that I am inclined to that view. Obviously the Church in Wales and the Church of England have taken different paths. That is a matter for the Church of England.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, we should be careful because the Church of Rome appoints its own bishops and takes a great deal longer than the Church of England, which is itself very dilatory. Changes do not necessarily speed up the system.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I am a great believer that if one does not want too much change, one should have some change.

BBC Licence Fee: Non-payment

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 1st April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the important thing is that this is going to be a thorough review. It would not be wise of me to prejudge any of the decisions and discussions that will be had. The amendment would mean that the review would start within three months of enactment, and should then take no longer than 12 months. All the points that the noble Lord has raised will be part of that review.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

Yes, but will my noble friend accept that it would be a sad day if the BBC, which has a reputation throughout the world, were undermined by the kind of underhand technical pressures which are put about? We really ought to recognise that, on these Benches, as on the Benches opposite, there is strong support for the independent BBC, funded as it is, and with sufficient funds to go on being an exemplar to the world.

Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I thank noble Lords for their interventions. I think all will be revealed in due course.

I want to return to the matter of investors and business, because certainty over the EPS is part of that. The grandfathering of the EPS limit until the end of 2044 will, we believe, give investors in new gas plants certainty that the operation of their assets will not be constrained by the EPS for a period considered sufficient to make a return on their investment.

I am particularly mindful of what my noble friend Lord Deben said about business. It is important to note that business has made it clear that these grandfathering provisions are essential if the EPS is not to deter or increase the cost of investment in new gas plants.

[Lord Deben]

On that point, will my noble friend give way? I still do not understand the difference of view. The Government refuse to have a carbon intensity target for 2030 in order to give confidence to business to invest in low-carbon generation, but they insist that we have the equivalent for 2049, or whenever it is, because otherwise we will not get investment in gas. At least one of those arguments must be untrue. I cannot understand this utter conflict. They are two different arguments; my noble friend gave the one on the one occasion and now gives the opposite on this. We cannot really accept this argument on the basis of logic.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

Let me quote the CBI, which is particularly supportive of the Bill’s proposals:

“The current EPS proposal should remain unchanged … It has been set at a level that will allow new gas plants to be built … and it contains strong grandfathering proposals out to 2045 which will give investors confidence”.

I say to my noble friend that this is what the CBI believes is necessary for business investment, which I think all noble Lords would agree we desperately need.

[Lord Deben]

Most of the members of the CBI have also asked for that on the question of carbon intensity in 2030, but there the Government have said, “It doesn’t matter what they say on this because we know best”. Yet when it comes to this issue, they quote the CBI and other industry bodies in favour of it. I come back to my point: we must have this approach either for both cases or for neither. If we are to have it for gas, surely we do not need it as far ahead as this. I come back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron: we need it not at this level but only at 300 grams, as no one has suggested that gas will produce emissions of 450 grams. Where is that extra 150 grams coming from? What is it for?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

As I say, I am quoting the CBI specifically on this matter, and it cites the year 2045. Although I understand what my noble friend is saying, I cannot renege on the fact that the CBI is specifically citing that particular year in the quote that I wanted to mention to the Committee.

There has also been a query, although we are going to discuss the 300 grams in further amendments, about the 450 grams. That figure represents a significant reduction in the emissions of a new coal plant. This level builds on and supports the planning requirement for any new coal plant to be equipped with CCS while being above the level of carbon emissions for a new gas plant. The 450-gram limit also provides some flexibility for CCS projects to help manage the uncertainties associated with first-of-kind technology. As I say, though, we will have a separate debate on this matter with the amendment of the noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth.

If I may continue, I say to noble Lords who may be concerned that we are locking in high levels of unabated gas generation well into the future, while grandfathering will give investor certainty over the regulatory regime under which their assets will operate in relation to EPS, it does not permit a right to emit. This is because as levels of low-carbon generation increase, with its use effectively prioritised due to its low generation cost, unabated gas generation will increasingly be displaced. The role of gas will therefore be to balance an energy system that includes greater amounts of inflexible and intermittent generation. Analysis for our gas generation strategy shows average overall load factors for gas plants at around 27% in 2030, based on achieving 100-grams-per-kilowatt-hour grid average emissions intensity.

The role of government is to strike a balance between the three objectives of energy policy: to decarbonise our electricity system, to maintain security of energy supply to the country and to keep costs to consumers to a minimum. I understand that the intention behind this amendment is to provide greater certainty for decarbonisation but, for the reasons I have set out, I believe that shortening the grandfathering period of the EPS would introduce uncertainty and risk to the new gas plants we will need to build up to 2030, and that the better way to balance these three objectives is through the approach that we are taking in the Bill.

I will study the references that have been made during this short debate, particularly my exchanges with my noble friend Lord Deben. As this is a technical matter, it would probably be better if I wrote to him and other noble Lords on this. I appreciate that the noble Baroness will be disappointed by my reply but I hope she understands that the Government cannot support her proposed approach because of the three objectives that we need to balance. On that basis, I hope that she will withdraw her amendment.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My understanding is that the answer to that is yes.

[Lord Deben]

Perhaps I might suggest to my noble friend that there is a way out of this, which is that we put into the Bill a statement that all this applies to plants built before 2025. The Government can then have all that they want but we do not have the ridiculous situation in which I can build a gas plant in 2043, seven years before we have to reduce our emissions by 80%, which would drive a wedge totally through that. Is my noble friend prepared to consult on whether the Government will accept an amendment put forward on that basis, which has been suggested to me by my noble friend Lord Dixon-Smith, who has made a very sensible proposal?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I have said that I will study everything that all noble Lords have said. The point is that you would not have certainty, building in 2043, that the EPS level would stay the same beyond 2044. I think that probably helps to clarify that. However, I will consider all the points that my noble friend has made.

Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Gardiner of Kimble

Thursday 11th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for tabling these probing amendments, as he described them, and therefore providing this opportunity to continue the careful scrutiny of this part of the Bill. I have listened carefully to what noble Lords have said. I believe that we all want to secure the best for consumers but suspect that we may diverge on how that is best achieved.

Amendment 51ZA would require the Secretary of State to bring forward regulations to allow collective redress for energy consumers. We agree that consumers should be able to get the compensation that they are due when things go wrong. The consumer redress order powers we have put forward in the Bill will provide energy consumers with what we believe is the most appropriate and cost-effective way of obtaining this. In principle, collective redress can provide benefits in some sectors, but I am concerned about the potential impact such powers may have on the time and cost involved for energy consumers seeking redress through this route, and the impact of any additional costs on all consumers.

The most effective redress mechanism ensures that consumers receive timely and cost-effective compensation, and I was particularly interested in what the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, said about balance in these matters. Under existing arrangements, energy consumers can already obtain redress through the courts, but the legal process does not typically offer a quick or cheap remedy for consumers who have suffered a detriment. In part, the concern that I have about the proposals from the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, on collective redress is that it would not speed up the process; indeed, it may, perversely, lengthen it, although I am sure that is not his intention. Consumers will also be required to identify themselves as potential claimants and join an action. Consumer redress order powers overcome these barriers by allowing Ofgem to take action on consumers’ behalf, without them needing to initiate action or incur costs.

Allowing collective redress via these amendments would benefit intermediaries involved in bringing such cases, who will seek awards that allow them to recover their costs—which would be borne by claimants or, where costs are awarded, by all consumers as energy companies seek to recover these sums. Collective redress could also encourage litigation on fine points of law, creating higher costs for energy companies, which would again risk increasing prices for consumers as a whole. In contrast, the consumer redress order powers contained in the Bill offer a speedier resolution to consumer detriment, which does not require consumers to come forward and take action, is proportionate to the sums at stake and minimises the potential costs for all energy consumers.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked whether the Bill’s provisions cover regular breaches of consumer law. The intention is that they will. If the breach is also a breach of licence conditions, such as mis-selling, that would be included.

The noble Lord’s Amendments 51ZE and 51ZF would increase the time limit for consumer redress order powers contained in Schedule 14 from, as the noble Lord has mentioned, five years to 15. I naturally have sympathy with amendments designed to ensure that consumers can obtain redress. The intention is certainly not for these time limits to be arbitrary. The time limit is consistent with the existing time limit for Ofgem imposing penalties on energy companies. In some cases, both penalty and redress may be appropriate, and so it is important that the enforcement regime that we establish allows Ofgem to balance both penalties and redress when looking to put things right.

This five-year time period for penalties was introduced as recently as the Energy Act 2010, following, as the noble Lord will know, two high-profile cases which showed the limitation of the then one-year limit for Ofgem to investigate and take action. There has been no case involving an energy company either before or since where it is alleged that this five-year time limit would not have provided ample opportunity for Ofgem to take action.

[Lord Deben]

On that point, I declare an interest as chairman of the Association of Professional Financial Advisers. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that very long periods allowing for what is by then retrospective action can have a damaging effect on the confidence of an industry. We have to be very careful to get this balance right. The reference to the financial services industry made by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, is a mistake because many people now recognise that that has done and will do significant harm, and is against any sense of human rights. There comes a point at which those who have been involved are now so far removed from those who are operating that it does not make sense. Five years was chosen, and it seems not a bad choice. I hope that the Minister will resist any temptation to go further. I say that as somebody who has no interest whatever in energy provision companies.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My noble friend provides an excellent prelude to further commentary on why the Government are concerned about the extension to 15 years. There are indeed jurisdictions with longer time limits than those afforded to energy consumers though these powers. Of course, there are others which are significantly less. These variations reflect various factors, including the length of time required to detect and act on wrongdoing, the scale of the sums at sake and the likelihood of sufficient evidence being able to investigate and determine a claim.

The powers are drafted to balance—a word that was used by my noble friend—these considerations without placing unnecessary additional costs on consumers. My noble friend has mentioned business. We are certainly seeking to provide an appropriate balance to all these matters. For those reasons—although I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, that his amendments have been given proper consideration—I hope that the explanation I have given is sufficiently compelling at this time that he might feel able to withdraw his amendment.