Domestic Premises (Energy Performance) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Duncan of Springbank

2nd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 2nd reading (Hansard)
Friday 7th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy and Northern Ireland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting and important discussion on a Bill that addresses an issue which I believe we all care very much about. As we look at the challenges facing the country in ensuring that all are able to live in a warm home, there is no doubt in my mind right now that that is a simple statement of ambition for everyone here.

The Government remain committed to delivering on a heat policy road map, and they will do so very soon indeed. It will look at how to both reduce emissions on buildings and address energy efficiency and will come as part of a series of announcements that we will make as we approach COP 26 in Glasgow in November. That heat policy road map is imminent. However, it cannot come alone; it must come alongside a fuel poverty strategy for England—I cannot on this occasion speak for Scotland. Again, that strategy will come very soon. These two combined policies will set out the series of steps which will be taken to bring us toward taking the necessary step to ensure that we have eliminated fuel poverty and addressed the energy efficiency of buildings in good time on our approach to our ambitious net zero target by 2050.

The noble Lord, Lord McNicol, asked when the White Paper is coming. It will necessarily come first, setting each of these policies and a wider range of policies into a broader context. Again, that is also part of our ambitious complete statement ahead of the Glasgow climate change conference.

On the question of ongoing investment in addressing the quality and durability of homes, we continue to invest some £2.5 billion in capital funding to improve the homes of those on lower incomes, and we are seeking to improve the warm home discount and energy company obligation. Each of these will be necessary.

A great deal has changed since the earlier incarnation of the Bill was introduced in the other place, not least that there has been an election, which is one of the reasons why that Bill did not make progress. In that election, the party of government, to which I belong, made a number of serious commitments in its manifesto, and it is worth while rehearsing what they are. There will be £6.3 billion-worth of upgrade for those in fuel-poor homes, particularly in social housing. We will consult on raising minimum energy performance standards in private rentals—again, as a number of noble Lords mentioned today, private rentals are perhaps the most difficult to reach of all properties, since they are in the hands of a large number of individuals. We will consult on setting requirements for lenders to improve the energy performance, which, again, should help us move in the right direction. Finally, we will consult on phasing out the installation of fossil fuel heating systems in off-gas grid properties—again, trying to get to that hard-to-reach final point in moving this forward.

We are putting forward a number of other policies, some of which touch on issues raised by noble Lords today. On the question of insulation, raised by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, he is quite right. You can have the best insulation, badly installed, and you achieve literally nothing. The problem with that is that if your kitemarked process does not recognise the installation, you could theoretically have a high quality and yet a low reality, and you might never know that, because there is no way to monitor it traditionally inside your own home. Therefore, we are instituting a new trust mark scheme, which should allow us to examine things such as cavity wall insulation to ensure that it is up to standard regarding not just the materials but the installation itself. That should go some of the way forward. We are also putting £5 million into the green home finance innovation to look at other ways in which we can address some of the issues inside homes, and £10 million to examine how best to retrofit.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Earl, Lord Errol, questioned how we are able to look at some houses which are listed beyond the ability to address them. To be frank, it is a hornets’ nest to try to look at the whole listing process, but that will need to be done. We are sitting in a Chamber that is surrounded by glass held in by pieces of lead. As this building goes through its retrofit, we have to ask ourselves how it shall achieve the highest possible standard, and what it can expect to achieve in that regard.

The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, asked why the number of people who seem to be stuck in fuel poverty does not seem to change year on year. He is right to ask that, and the answer is a more straightforward one, as it is a relative metric. It is always looking at the bottom 10% to 12%, so we will always get a similar sort of figure. However, because what we are measuring inside that will change but the numbers themselves may not, to measure progress within it we need to look at the fuel poverty gap, which is the difference in bills between fuel-poor and not fuel-poor households. The fuel poverty gap fell from £873 million in 2010 to £812 million in 2017—the most recent statistics that we have. I do not think that is enough, if I am being honest, but it is a move in the right direction. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, also asked about the renewable heat incentive. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has committed to a replacement for that, but I do not yet know what that replacement will be, so I cannot give him any more detail on that.

The noble Lord, Lord Deben, made a number of serious points. His chairmanship of the Committee on Climate Change is welcome and his contribution is welcome in that regard. Our future home standards will be introduced by 2025. I know that he will quickly say that that is too late, and I understand why he would, but it will require new-build homes to be future-proofed, with low-carbon heating and world-leading levels of energy efficiency. As it happens, we are consulting on it right now, and consultation on that particular proposal closes today, so I fear those who have not yet put their thoughts on paper may be a little too late.

[Lord Deben]

Will my noble friend give way on that point? Can he assure me that in 2025, the new standards will come into operation on any house that is under construction, and not wait for people to have fulfilled their planning period; otherwise, it will not be 2025—as history tells us, it will be 2029?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I will give that commitment; I think I can do that. This may not be in the consultation, but I think that would make perfect sense. We need dates to be meaningful, and 2025 is the meaningful date we are talking about here. If a piece of paper whistles towards me from the Box, noble Lords will realise that I have gone beyond my brief, but I think that at this point that commitment is something I can make—I hope. Yes, I have reassurance from over my shoulder.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked about the radio programme he heard this morning and what tax issue will come forward. I suspect that it is true to say that all of this area is being examined. The Treasury works in mysterious ways: I cannot tell noble Lords exactly what it is thinking about at this moment, but I am sure it is thinking very big thoughts. When it tells us what they are, I shall be very interested to hear them, much the same as the noble Lord.

What I have to come round to, and have been skirting around just now, is that although the Bill itself is welcome in so far as it facilitates this discussion and our debate today, we cannot support it. I appreciate that a number of noble Lords will be disappointed in that regard, but let me explain some of the reasons why we cannot do that today.

The first is that we have strategies coming which will examine this. I thought that was a piece of paper whistling toward me—good, it was not. I am sorry about that; I am distracting myself. The policies that we will be putting out in a matter of a few months will set the strategic direction and set in place within a road map how we will achieve it. The Bill before us would cut across that and reduce our flexibility when that comes forward.

The other aspect of the Bill is that it gives us no new powers or levers. It does not actually help us achieve the ends; it would simply set the framework within which we are to achieve them. Those dates will be contained within the strategies I mentioned. It will be important to ensure that the strategies have clear dates, and we have a road map with commitments which fit into a legal framework to ensure the certainty which underpins the purpose behind the Bill: to allow the building sector to understand what it is up against, what it has to commit to, and, frankly, what it should be exceeding. These should be setting minimum standards, there should not be any limit on their ambitions to move beyond that point.

I do not doubt that the noble Lord will be disappointed to hear that we do not support the Bill, but I can give assurances that in the development of the strategies to come, I would welcome his involvement and that of all Members of the House who have taken an interest in the Bill today. I would also welcome the involvement of Mr Bailey; I was disappointed to hear that he was ill, but would welcome his involvement in this process as the strategies become more robust. I think elements of the Bill will find a new home in the strategy as it manifests itself as a more solid approach.

I appreciate that that is not the outcome many here would have wished for, but I hope that noble Lords will understand why I am saying that. We are in no way seeking to be less than absolutely ambitious in this area, and we will seek to work with all to ensure that our strategy delivers, as this Bill itself would have delivered.

Flags (Northern Ireland) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Monday 25th March 2019 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

I am wondering why we do not just leave it on 9 May. If you cannot change it—which I understand—we should leave it on 9 May and announce that this is a reference to our membership of the Council of Europe. If it is the union flag, or the two flags, then that is perfectly all right. Why do we have to take it away? It is much better to leave it. Otherwise, it says something different.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord makes a point which he has made on many occasions—I do not doubt it. Earlier in his remarks, he said that we could do it on 9 May, but it would be better to do it on 5 May because the Council of Europe has a day that we could celebrate as well. He is now reverting back to 9 May, thereby reversing the points that he made in his earlier speech, and I will therefore set them aisde.

Importantly, we are recognising that in Northern Ireland—as anywhere else in the UK—flags are a sensitive issue. They are heavily regulated. Failure to do so has led not only to mistrust but to civil unrest. We must treat the reality in Northern Ireland with caution. This is why the adjustment to flying the flags on different days, or recognising—as we have not been able to do in Northern Ireland—the additional members of the Royal Family who are entitled to certain flag flying days, cannot happen without the express involvement of the Northern Ireland Assembly. It is absolutely appropriate, given how sensitive this matter is.

We are conflating two issues: Europe and Northern Ireland. When we look back to the period 1998 to 2000 in Northern Ireland, we begin to recognise that the flags issue was not only live, but dangerous. Therefore, we have always tried to move this forward inside Northern Ireland with permission. In this instance, we are making a correction and ensuring that the whole United Kingdom is treated in the same manner.

This brings me to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie. Guidance issued by one of the Whitehall departments is different because it is not bound by regulation, as these regulations apply to Northern Ireland. They are not needed here because they are not as controversial. There will be no restriction on the flying of the flag of Europe in many places at council level, wherever they wish to do so. The actual designation of official flag flying days is heavily regulated in Northern Ireland. We are only correcting for the reality that Europe Day will not be celebrated in Northern Ireland because it is the flag of membership of the EU and that will not be true thereafter.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I fear that the noble Lord has misunderstood my points. If I may, I will restate and re-emphasise them. I said that this regulation will come in only after we have exited the European Union. As the noble Lord will be aware, the point at which we exit the European Union is not yet clear. If that date is after 9 May, then the flag will fly this year because that regulation will not be amendable. This order amends it only after the point of exit. That is why for this year—I am being very frank—it is unclear whether the flag will fly as per the regulations within the amended 2000 order. Up until that point, I cannot give any greater clarity. We are doing this now because we are able to do it under the existing legislation in order to correct the situation following the European Union (Withdrawal) Act.

There may come a time when those in Northern Ireland wish to reflect on which flags they fly and when they wish to fly them—I have little doubt about that—but until the Assembly comes together to determine that, it will be unable to that matter forward. I note how important this matter has been and I state again, as carefully as I can, that Northern Ireland is the only part of this kingdom in which we have had to regulate the flying of flags. Nowhere else have we had to do so. Nowhere else at council level would we anticipate anything other than the flying of flags which people wish to fly, whether they be a union flag, a European Union flag or flags for other particular purposes. This will no doubt continue. Here we are talking about a very strict and specific piece of legislation which affects only Northern Ireland.

[Lord Deben]

I am sorry to interrupt my noble friend. If we changed this, we would have to go through a whole system. I understand that. It was a little unfair of him to complain that I was prepared to say that if he found that difficult, we might do it in a different way. It seems very odd that that we are removing this without going through that system. We have not asked all the people who have to be asked if we going to put something else in but we are unilaterally deciding to take this day out. I find that difficult.

I started off by saying that I have been through those debates and I know them perfectly well. I got into a lot of trouble with my unionist friends because I fought for what the Government wanted. I am perfectly aware of the difficulty in the north of Ireland, but is it acceptable to remove something without that process, when it is not acceptable to add or change something about that process? It seems unacceptable to do this unilaterally.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord, sitting as he does in a legislature, will appreciate the difference between making law and interpreting how you fly flags. At present, the difficulty he speaks of is not just a difficulty but an illegality: that we would not be able to move forward by adjusting the dates in Northern Ireland because of the restrictions of the law. What we might wish to do beyond that may be described as a difficulty, but what we seek to do here is to be legally correct in this instance. I am aware that the noble Lord has been passionate in his defence of the union flag and the union flag in Northern Ireland. I am also aware of how controversial that flag has been in Northern Ireland, for many different reasons.

The European Union flag we have flown on the ninth, which is flown across Europe, is primarily a flag of membership of the EU. We do not fly it in recognition of our membership of the Council of Europe because, most of the time—if I am being frank as a former Member of the European Parliament—people were rarely aware of the distinction between the Council of Europe and the European Council and the fact that one preceded the other by several decades. Even today, very few people marching on these streets will necessarily draw that distinction.

One of the great sins, I suspect, of this country—indeed, perhaps of our media—is how often we have been unable to explain in clear terms how the EU works, how our responsibilities within the Council of Europe work and the difference between the European Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights. We conflate these things constantly and I am fully aware that people right now will probably be unaware that the Council of Europe and in the EU, one heavily predating the other, have the same flag and, indeed, a shared anthem—and have had for some time, albeit that in the EU it is an unofficial anthem. All these things become conflated. The reality we face is simple: under the EU withdrawal agreement that we moved forward last year, this piece of legislation is uncontentious. It is important to stress that the European statutory instruments committee of this House said that, as a matter of policy, there is nothing contentious in the amendments proposed by this instrument.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Duncan of Springbank

Committee: 8th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

In this instance, it is not part of EU retained law, but that is not the point. We are saying that the powers that already rest in the Secretary of State’s hands are equal to the powers that would come through this amendment.

[Lord Deben]

If it is not part of this Bill, why not? The Government said that they were going to take this into the legislation. Why is it excluded? That is why people are frightened—because the Government have not put it in the Bill.