Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill
Debate between Lord Deben and Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, this intervention is not intended to be unhelpful or mischievous, but I cannot help remarking that in earlier amendments there has been heavy concentration on there being equal representation on both sides. I notice that there is the possibility of a legal representative in the procedure recommended by the amendment. However, I am not sure what powers that that gives the employer if the employer wants to have a legal representative there as well.
I realise that there are two answers to this. One is that of course the employer would be entitled to have a legal representative there because he was the employer. Alternatively, to go back to what the noble Lord, Lord Monks, said about the introduction of silks into the case—about which I am in no way sensitive—there seems to be a feeling on the part of those who have propounded the amendment that if there is going to be a legal representative for the employee, they totally understand that the employer will have one too. However, the absence of those words might otherwise be used against the interests of the employer in the discussion that was taking place.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I declare an interest as an employer. I make the point that these discussions are much better done on the relevance of the facts and the nature of the argument. I really could not listen to the comments about Mr Beecroft without suggesting that the idea that we should discuss this as if it were “Beecroft-lite”—I think that was the phrase—rather than as a proposition to be properly discussed for its nature is rather a sad thing. If people are talking about “Beecroft-lite”, I must not be moving in the right circles; I have heard no one use such a phrase.
The real issue is: do we have the right balance at the moment? Is it sensible or not to allow employers, in circumstances where this seems to be a better answer, to offer, not impose, an arrangement that includes a payment of this sum? It seems a perfectly reasonable suggestion, and we should not be arguing about it because someone we do not like did not suggest it but suggested something else, and now a Government we do not like are actually bringing forward something different and it might be rather close to that. Frankly, that is not a very good argument. We have to have an argument about the facts; and the facts seem to be that this is a moderate change that would in many circumstances be very convenient for both workers and employers.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, I hope the Minister will regard this as a late contribution to his consultation, but since the academic research on which it is based is 50 years old, and I have no idea whether it has been updated, he does not need to take it very seriously. I recall that when I set out in business 51 years ago, some very detailed academic research had been done in the context of executives—I am not necessarily talking about the shop floor—which found that each employee had a particular gradient for the ascent of their salary. If they went above a figure, whatever the figure was on the line, they were highly likely to fail. If they went below it, they were highly likely to seek another job. The research was sufficiently comprehensive to be an interesting observation and contribution to the process.
Lord Deben
My Lords, I will make a simple statement. We have to get an atmosphere in Britain in which employers are less frightened of taking on more staff. I have to say to the Opposition that, if you are an employer, for a long time now there has been a general feeling that you are better off not increasing the number of people you employ. Some of us have fought against that and employed more and more people, but it is not a general trend. I think the Opposition, and particularly the Trades Union Congress have got to come to terms with this psychological fact. It is important for employers to feel that the problems that may open up for them if they make a mistake in employing someone are at least reasonably limited. That is why the Government’s approach in this Bill is absolutely right—it simply, delicately and very slightly seeks to shift the balance so that employers begin to feel that there is a real reason for them no longer to be afraid.
The trouble is that, in this whole discussion, there are 200 years of accumulated dislike of the concept of employers. I find that very hard to understand. The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, speaking from the TUC brief and from a long history as a negotiator, could hardly hide from us the feeling that people ought to employ people and that they will do it automatically. The truth is that we have found, over the past few years, an increasing reluctance to employ, although we ought to have a society in which we restrain our use of material resources and extend our use of human resources. That is what sustainability actually means. However, to do that you must have a format within which people are not so worried that they do not employ.
The very moderate steps being taken here are essential if we are to see an increasing number of people in employment. The unemployment figures are much better than many thought they would be, and I think this Bill will help. If it helps, then it will do more good for the working people of Britain than anything else. I am very unhappy that the Opposition are suggesting that the Bill is in some way anti the workers in factories and businesses; it is not. It is a mechanism to get more people into jobs by removing the feeling that employment is too dangerous an activity to step further into than you really have to. That is the change we have to make and we need to make it now.