Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Amendment) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Jolly

Tuesday 27th February 2018 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her introduction. I do not intend to detain the Committee long. These two regulations are, I suspect, the first of many health regulations that transpose EU law into UK law. I shall outline my understanding. As the Minister has just outlined, there are two key directives: the coding directive and the import directive, the first to ensure traceability and the second to ensure imported tissues and cells meet quality and safety standards. As I see it, the aim of these SIs is to transpose these provisions in the coding and import directives. For many patients, it is critical that this is right. What was particularly interesting in the briefings were the impact assessments that accompanied them. The transition tables enable clarity about how elements of EU legislation are put into UK law and allow us to match one for one to ensure that nothing has been altered or omitted. As far as my inexperienced eye could tell, that has been achieved. Another interesting point is the cost to the sector of the work to achieve this.

I have a few questions for the Minister, of which I have given her prior notice. Will she tell the Committee what consultations were done and with whom? What practical changes will the sector see and how long is the sector allowing for such changes to take place, if any? What cost implications are there for both organisations? Much work has been done. Was it budgeted for in their income when they were funded or has the cost had to be found from existing budgets?

As I said earlier, these are our first regulations, and I wonder whether the Minister could tell us how many more to expect and the likely total cost of this exercise to the NHS. Does she anticipate that we will be able to process these changes before leaving the EU? Does she have any indication of whether this exercise is prioritised, or do the regulations come as they are available? I spoke to both the HFEA and the HCA and they are both content with these regulations, so we are also happy to endorse them.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on the elegant way in which she dealt with a very difficult issue. The only reason why I am speaking is that on every occasion we should draw the attention of the House to the fact that merely taking EU legislation into British law does not actually meet the case, because that is of no use unless there is equivalence. We cannot in future operate as if we could operate on our own, because the whole purpose of this legislation is that we can pass these things without difficulty across the whole of the EU.

I do not expect my noble friend to answer what I have to say. As I said, I thought her presentation of this difficult situation was as elegant as it is humanly possible to be. But we cannot escape the fact that this is another example where leaving the EU does not solve problems but causes really serious ones. When she said that we are looking for equivalence, I have to say that there is nothing else that we could look for because nothing else would meet the needs. Anything else would cease to enable us to use these very important elements across the whole of the EU; we would have our own system.

I have just spoken to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, and again I had to say that the idea that Britain is going to have her own rules about the carbon exhausts of vans is just barmy because we are not big enough to do that. Here, similarly, what we are seeing in reality in this SI is the serious damage that is being done by this whole enterprise. Although it may bore Ministers and some of my colleagues on this side of the House to be reminded of it, I do not think any of these should be passed without reminding people of the huge cost, the vast inconvenience and maybe even the lives that will be endangered by behaving as stupidly as we are by believing that we can operate without a connection with our neighbours. Indeed, we do not believe that; that is why the answer is that we will look for equivalence. If you look for equivalence, of course, what you are really doing is saying that the rules will be made by someone else and we will merely accept them.

Consumer Rights Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Jolly

Monday 24th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, in Suffolk it took us a very long time to get used to getting rid of the word “coomb”, which used to be how we would weigh corn. The problem was that other counties had a different coomb so it was quite difficult to compare one with another. Gradually, we came to terms with the idea that you might have tonnes—which we have now more or less accepted. However, this House should be very careful about this amendment because we are less well qualified to talk about this matter than most. Young people do not have a problem: they have only one system of measurement. My young are in their 20s and 30s. If I say, “Oh, it’s about 22 yards away”, they have no idea what I am talking about. One reason why the Daily Telegraph has been losing readers is that it still uses only imperial measures, which limits one’s audience to a particular age. Given its views, that is probably quite suitable for that newspaper.

There is a simple way around this, and I want to ask the Minister to help me. It is perfectly reasonable for an aged gentleman doing his shopping to be able to ask for a pound of apples. I can see that if you have never asked for half a kilo, it is somewhat difficult. Equally, it is perfectly reasonable for shops at a local level to make that kind of arrangement. But we have had from my noble friend Lord Taverne an example of something quite different, and that is the railway industry. If that industry cannot use one system, and if we cannot organise people to use one system for measurements, what then? Of course we could go back to using imperial measurements, but it is more difficult to add up, multiply and divide using that system. I remember that there are 1,760 yards in a mile, but most people who are aged under 40 do not.

This seems to me to be one of the most footling battles I have ever heard of. It really is not sensible to say that our sovereignty is being impinged by a system that is easier for us all and which means that we can communicate with people. We would still have to talk to them even if we were not in the European Union—it would be very silly indeed to suggest that—so would it not be a good idea to use the same language? The people who want to carry on with imperial measures grow fewer and fewer as the days go by.

I would like us to take one tiny step—I hope that the Minister will be able to say something by way of encouragement—which is that in all areas that are not about the immediate local connection between a shopkeeper and a shopper, only one measurement shall be used. That should not be too difficult to achieve. The shoppers and shopkeepers will change as they die off. Indeed, I notice that in my local village shop there are people who ask for their goods in either one measurement or the other. That will change and it can happen as slowly as we want, but surely any normal business-to-business activity—all of us now know what the term B2B means—ought always to be carried out using metric measurements.

I end by saying that I am experienced in this because a friend of mine was the chairman of the Anti-Metrication Board, an organisation set up by those who felt that something deeply awful was happening to Britain. I know that my noble friend takes that view on most things. The board had a mystical view about the fact that you could not measure ley lines using the metric system. There are few in this House who wish to measure ley lines. I am happy if the Government decide that in future ley lines may be measured only using the imperial system, but could they please ensure that all normal, reasonable activities other than the very smallest ones can be done using one of the most remarkable inventions of all? It took the great step from Roman numerals to Arabic numerals one stage further and gave us a system that even I can use simply and surely. Please let us not go on fighting a battle against Napoleon.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, I start by thanking my noble friend Lord Taverne for his well considered speech and the thorough explanation of his amendments. UK weights and measures legislation works by focusing regulation on measurements and equipment that are in “use for trade”. This ensures that the primary focus is on those transactions where consumers need to know the quantity they are purchasing, how it compares to alternatives, and that they can rely on the quantity being accurate. The fundamental principle behind weights and measures policy is that every measurement used for the purpose of “use for trade” should be subject to the minimum level of regulation to ensure that businesses and consumers are protected against short measure and can have confidence in measurements.

Any transactions being made by reference to quantity or any statement of quantity made or implied in relation to a transaction is caught by the term “use for trade”. It applies widely and is intended to apply not just to the transaction itself but to any use,

“in connection with or with a view to”,

a use for trade—perhaps that is B2B. That would already cover most advertisements or product descriptions for goods. However, there are some cases, of which my noble friend highlighted several examples, where a product is not being sold on the basis of quantity and so the unit itself is not being used “in use for trade”. In these cases the usage would fall within the more general rules on what constitutes a legal unit as set out in the Units of Measurement Regulations.

This additional legislation, outside the Weights and Measures Act, makes it clear that metric units are the legal unit for any purposes beyond “use for trade”. Therefore, the use of a non-metric unit in the examples given by my noble friend are already not legal uses under the existing legislation. The Government are not aware of any significant demand from business or consumers to extend the scope of offences under the Weights and Measures Act to cover uses of units of measurement beyond “use for trade” or to extend what is caught by “use for trade”.

However, this morning I was glad to meet my noble friend and officials in order to talk through the issue. He raised an important point about how product descriptions and advertisements are being used in the marketplace, and the potential impact on consumer protection. We have tried to clarify the issue. The Government will commit to taking this forward with the relevant industry bodies to remind them of the current legal position and the importance of providing clarity for consumers. I hope that in due course we will not have a mixture of square metres and square feet when describing rooms so that we can purchase carpets more easily. As my noble friend stated, the Government do not believe that it is in the national interest for further metrication to take place against the wishes of the UK public. I fear that my noble friend’s bid for total metrification will have to wait a while—but I sincerely hope not 800 years.

While my noble friend has clearly targeted his amendments at units of measurement, I would be concerned at the risk of unintended consequences from making any extension to the scope of weights and measures law and the risk of causing confusion by duplicating existing legislation. The UK is already a metric nation, along with most of the rest of the world, as my noble friend said. The majority of UK businesses and the public sector switched to metric units almost 20 years ago. The vast majority of trade is now undertaken using metric units, and metric has been taught as the primary unit of measurement in UK schools ever since 1974. Over time, public support for metric units is increasing, and as we have heard, especially among young people. Businesses that are not providing metric units risk losing business as more and more people are using metric in everyday life. My noble friend Lord Deben asked why single units could not be required for other purposes. These uses are already regulated, and metric units are the legal measurements required under the Units of Measurement Regulations. However, imperial units can always be permitted as a supplementary indicator.

I hope that noble Lords are reassured that “use for trade” already applies widely and catches all transactions which are based on quantity. Even in those cases where “use for trade” does not apply, the legal units are already defined in law. Therefore, I ask my noble friend to withdraw the amendment.