Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Donaghy

Wednesday 5th December 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

My Lords, I will make a simple statement. We have to get an atmosphere in Britain in which employers are less frightened of taking on more staff. I have to say to the Opposition that, if you are an employer, for a long time now there has been a general feeling that you are better off not increasing the number of people you employ. Some of us have fought against that and employed more and more people, but it is not a general trend. I think the Opposition, and particularly the Trades Union Congress have got to come to terms with this psychological fact. It is important for employers to feel that the problems that may open up for them if they make a mistake in employing someone are at least reasonably limited. That is why the Government’s approach in this Bill is absolutely right—it simply, delicately and very slightly seeks to shift the balance so that employers begin to feel that there is a real reason for them no longer to be afraid.

The trouble is that, in this whole discussion, there are 200 years of accumulated dislike of the concept of employers. I find that very hard to understand. The noble Baroness, Lady Turner, speaking from the TUC brief and from a long history as a negotiator, could hardly hide from us the feeling that people ought to employ people and that they will do it automatically. The truth is that we have found, over the past few years, an increasing reluctance to employ, although we ought to have a society in which we restrain our use of material resources and extend our use of human resources. That is what sustainability actually means. However, to do that you must have a format within which people are not so worried that they do not employ.

The very moderate steps being taken here are essential if we are to see an increasing number of people in employment. The unemployment figures are much better than many thought they would be, and I think this Bill will help. If it helps, then it will do more good for the working people of Britain than anything else. I am very unhappy that the Opposition are suggesting that the Bill is in some way anti the workers in factories and businesses; it is not. It is a mechanism to get more people into jobs by removing the feeling that employment is too dangerous an activity to step further into than you really have to. That is the change we have to make and we need to make it now.

[Baroness Donaghy]

I do not want to prolong things as I realise that we are winding up. We had this debate when we were discussing the regulations on employment tribunals and the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, was in the lead. The very same remarks as those made by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, were uttered then by the noble Lord, Lord Jones of Birmingham. This is not a new debate. The only thing that I would say is that some of us come from a climate—I will remind the Committee that I was chair of ACAS—where we support employers as well as employees. We want to create good employment relations because we believe that that is good for growth in Britain.

We know that companies fail because they are sometimes badly managed and sometimes undercapitalised. I do not know of many companies that failed simply because an employer could not get to grips with getting rid of a bad employee. I have been a manager myself and have dismissed people, and I fully accept that there are poor employees. However, what we need in this country are decent skills and a good vocational education system, and I think the Government are trying to tackle that. We also need good management—something that I do not believe has been sufficiently emphasised in this discussion—and we need to be able to explain to employees where they fit in in the scheme of things so that they understand that and feel involved. Those are the points that I wish to make. This is not a new debate.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Donaghy

Monday 16th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Deben]

It is because the Government have not gone far enough yet; that is the whole point. I would have a different structure, but the noble Baroness must not ask me to answer for the Government. I am lucky enough to be formerly a Minister and to be able to say one or two things which need to be said. I disagree with the noble Baroness, but she will find on other occasions that I am stalwart in support of some of the things that she says which this Government do not agree with. However, on this occasion, I beg my noble friend to stand firm.

[Baroness Donaghy]

I must admit that I enjoyed that. I even agree with one or two points that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, made. I look back to the days when local government had real power and it would be good if that happened again. Given the more centralist-inclined Governments that we have had during the past 30 years, that is probably not very likely.

As your Lordships will see, my name is attached to the amendment. That was a mistake; it was a case of mistaken identity. When the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, went to table the amendment, my name was put down instead of hers. I cannot imagine why, but I was very happy to keep my name on it even though I did not put it there. Incidentally, on the same day, having sorted out that one to our satisfaction, I sat down and found that my name had been added to a debate in the main Chamber on the misuse of alcohol. I was considerably more worried about that.