Brexit: Medicine Supply and NHS Staffing

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford

Thursday 5th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have claimed that they have done a detailed account of what would happen if we were to leave the European Union, as far as the health service is concerned. Why have they not published that detailed account, why do we not know any of those details and why is the whole country being kept in the dark on all these issues? The Minister has the facts. Can we please have them now, so that we know what we are debating about?

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

I do not believe that the noble Lord is presenting an accurate picture of the case. We have been very clear with the public, and a lot of information has been published on the MHRA website, on GOV.UK, on nhs.uk and in a number of other places, regarding the information about the analysis of the impact of no deal on patients and on the NHS. We have been very clear about the risks that we think there may be to the supply of medicines due to temporary disruption at the border and the mitigating measures that we have taken to ensure that the supply will continue uninterrupted to patients and to the healthcare system. If the noble Lord wishes to have more information, I am sure that he would be very happy to write to me, and I will place a copy of my reply in the Library.

Food Additives, Flavourings, Enzymes and Extraction Solvents (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Deben and Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford

Tuesday 9th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, are we not very lucky that they managed to put off the date as long as this, otherwise this SI would not have come before us? I just wonder how many SIs are hidden behind this one that would not have been passed in time. It seems pretty remarkable that we are talking today—after the date that the Prime Minister promised that on any basis whatever we were going to leave—and are dealing with this very important matter. It just draws attention to the absolute barminess of the whole process. To be doing this after what we did earlier in the week seems remarkable.

I do not envy my noble friend who has to defend this. When she says there are no changes, there is, of course, a fundamental change in that every small business in Britain that is exporting to the rest of Europe has to get itself passed by both the British and the rest of Europe. Although my noble friend rightly said that she did not believe this will stop people importing things, it could easily stop people exporting things. Indeed, the whole Brexit operation is designed to shoot the exporter in the foot and to enable the importer to have unrestricted access.

My first question is whether my noble friend can conceive of any circumstance in which the British would have different rules from the rest of the European Union on, for example, cocktail cherries. I hope the House has seen that there is a specific reference to cocktail cherries in this SI. I do not know why cocktail cherries should have this applied to them; it would be difficult to eat enough of them to be severely damaged in any way other than what always happens if you eat too much fruit. The issue is this: can we imagine circumstances in which we had a different regime from the rest of Europe?

What we are proceeding to do today is decide that the UK will test and check everything and do it again—or perhaps not. Perhaps what we are really going to do is say, “We accept everything that the rest of Europe says but we’re not going to have any part in it at all”. Is this not the fundamental issue about the whole Brexit concept—that the only way Brexit would work would be on the basis that we did everything that we do today but we did not have a say in it? I know this is very unfair on my noble friend but it seems important to me that we do not let any of these SIs go past without reminding your Lordships and the public of the fundamental lunacy of this whole policy.

That brings me to the cost and resources. The FSA has been starved of resources; the cuts have been significant. Yet the public are increasingly interested in food safety, and there is a good reason for that. We have lived through a whole lifetime in which food has fallen in price but we are now in a world in which food will be rising in price, by the very nature of the emerging middle classes throughout the world and the fact that resources right across the board are less and less available. In these circumstances, because there is more money to be made by fraud, we are likely to have more of it. The FSA is going to have a great deal more to do even without this additional work being placed upon its shoulders.

It is important for my noble friend to reassure the House that the full costs, both to local authorities and to the FSA, will in fact be provided by the Government. This is another example of the mathematics of Brexit never having been properly explained, because none of this came into the arguments about how much we were going to save by leaving the EU. We still need to have that fundamental reassurance. It is not unreasonable to ask the Minister to give us examples of when our independent FSA is going to make different decisions from the rest of Europe and, if so, how that would deal with the import/export problem to which I have adverted.

No doubt we will have to pass this—and are we not lucky that we have an opportunity to do so?—but, frankly, it is yet another example of the sheer waste of time that we are all involved in due to this Alice in Wonderland position in which we seriously think that a nation 22 miles off the coast of the rest of Europe is actually going to have a different safety arrangement for food products that are, and have to be, freely traded within the EU.

[Baroness Blackwood of North Oxford]

I thank noble Lords for this fascinating debate. I want to be the first to wish the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, a happy birthday, and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Deben, for disclosing to the House his passion for cocktail cherries.

Our approach to EU exit when it comes to the FSA is underpinned by three principles. The FSA has been working hard to ensure that UK food remains safe and is what it says it is; that the high standard of food and feed safety and consumer protection we enjoy in this country is maintained when the UK leaves the EU; and that from day one a robust and effective regulatory regime will be in place, meaning that business can continue as normal.

As has been debated, this instrument was subject to parliamentary scrutiny through the affirmative procedure and requires affirmative approval. It needed redrafting and I would like to go into some detail on that, given that the issue was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler. Some drafting errors were identified. I have been advised that they were minor. They mainly related to drafting style, rather than content. That is why the instrument was withdrawn. The errors have been rectified and the amended draft was brought back today. They related to an error in Regulation 16(b), where an obligation to inform the authority—the FSA or the FSS—of the receipt of an application for a product to be included in the list of products authorised for smoke flavourings was not included. That has been addressed. The FSA felt that the changes were minor, including a correction to remove a quotation mark at the end of a definition, which had been overlooked.

It was also said that the draft required elucidation relating to the requirement for definitions of appropriate authority and the authority prescribed for certain regulations. The FSA felt that this was not necessary as definitions are inserted by other draft EU exit regulations, but this has been actioned to make sure that it is absolutely as it should be. A final comment was about the failure to comply with proper legislative practice. This related to whether some text should be presented as a footnote instead. Again, the FSA considered that this was not required when originally drafting the instrument, as it replicated how the text was presented in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018. However, the comment was taken on board and the amendment has now been made. I hope that clarifies what the amendments were.

I turn to the questions raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Wheeler, about the FSA’s preparedness and about funding, which was also raised by my noble friend Lord Deben. Extra funding—£14 million last year and £16 million this year—has been allocated to the FSA to help it prepare for the additional requirements it will have to take on board. This has enabled it to put in place some additional risk assessment tools and risk management experts and to replace some EFSA procedures on which it previously relied. It is important to understand that the FSA has always had a robust risk assessment system in place and has always undertaken evidence-based risk management decisions for the future of food and feed safety issues. It has now built into its capacity the ability to provide robust risk assessment and management advice post exit, using the additional funding provided. That is why we have been able to provide reassurance as these SIs have gone forward, and this has been taken into account as we have prepared for negotiations going into the implementation period, whether in a deal or no-deal scenario.

Obviously, we are considering what kind of relationship we will have with EFSA and what the situation will be regarding the RASFF. At this point, no decision has been made about our future relationship with EFSA, because it will be subject to forthcoming UK-EU negotiations. However, departments have undertaken an analysis to understand the impact that withdrawal from the EU will have on our relationship with EFSA and the EU agencies. This is why the FSA has ensured it has robust risk assessments in place, no matter what the scenario may be. However, it is our preference to have a close relationship with EFSA and access to the RASFF. That is the ideal scenario, which we will be working towards.

The noble Baroness and my noble friend Lord Deben raised the consultation with industry. It is important to point out that this was a thorough six-week consultation, undertaken by the FSA, which took place in September and October last year. Late responses were also taken into account. There was significant support for the approach the FSA has now taken with the SIs. That is why we are confident that the industry and stakeholders will be able to take on board the approach taken in this and other SIs, which have been fully debated in the House. That approach has also involved the devolved Administrations, and the FSA will continue to have close working relationships with the Administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as we go forward. That is why we are confident that, in practice, it will be possible to make arrangements and operate a framework for food and feed safety regulations across the UK, whatever exit scenario we have.

The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, asked about contingency arrangements should there be changes in regulation within the EU. If noble Lords support these regulations they will be on course to come into force this week. But if there is a short delay to food law they will not be fully operable, amendments to authorised products could not be made and urgent action might be required on unsafe food. The Food Safety Act and already corrected retained EU law would then continue to provide food safety protection for consumers, and enforcement action could be taken against the placing of unsafe food on the market. I hope that reassures the noble Baroness on that point.

I thank noble Lords for their consideration of these regulations, and I hope I have answered their questions. As I said, the Government’s priority is to ensure that the high standards of food safety and consumer protection we enjoy in this country are maintained when the UK leaves the European Union. This instrument performs an important part of our preparations for a functioning statute book on exit. Food additives, flavourings, enzymes and extraction solvents are important parts of substances referred to as “food improvement agents”. We must ensure we have the correct protections in place to protect public health after exit. This instrument makes no change to public policy—pace my noble friend Lord Deben—and I hope noble Lords will therefore accept it as it stands.