Consumer Rights Bill

Lord Deben Excerpts

Wednesday 19th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I declare a total lack of interest in the sense that I neither buy through the internet for sporting occasions nor for the sort of musical occasions of which we have heard involving various persons with attractive names. However, somebody ought to speak in this debate on behalf of normal customers, who do not happen to have a big enthusiasm for it. However, I do have an enthusiasm for honesty and straightforwardness and I start by saying that if it were good enough for the Olympics, why the blazes is it not good enough now? The Government do not have a case because if they needed to do that to protect Britain’s reputation for the Olympics, they need to do it to protect Britain’s reputation for every other sporting activity and the like. That is the first thing and it seems perfectly obvious.

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[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord but I want to point out two things. First, the noble Lord spoke warmly about newspaper proprietors and what a wonderful thing it is that we have a rule in this country that editors should always be named so that they can be sued for libel. That has just been deregulated. Secondly, it was a Conservative Government who introduced the requirement to regulate chocolates.

[Lord Deben]

There may be regulations which, when people did not do it, you need. I think that if the Daily Telegraph took its address off, we would be able to find it. We would not be in too much difficulty with newspapers today. The problem here is that these websites are in the same position as newspapers were in those days, when there were a very large number of them, they were run off by hand and people did not know whence they came. I think that that explains the difference between now and then: the world changes and it moves quickly. I used the example of liqueur chocolates because it was always silly to have liqueur chocolates under the rules. I do not know which party proposed it, but whoever it was should be ashamed.

I finish with the real reason I wanted to stand up and talk about this. Britain is increasingly the centre of a very large tourist trade. London is the only world city, in a real sense. We have the glory of the most diverse society with the most wonderful opportunities. We should be saying, every day, “Thank goodness we live in this great country and in this great city”. Therefore, we must ensure that we protect the brand. I do not want to be vulgarly capitalist, but let us protect our brand.

I want us to be a major force in the European Union, where we are properly at home, but I want people coming from the rest of the European Union to feel that we protect them when they buy tickets here, when they buy them from abroad and when they come in from the EU and beyond—I want our American and Australian friends to feel that they can do this safely. The Government have a very simple way of doing this, which is to accept the amendment. I very much hope they will.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, in supporting the Government on this amendment I feel a bit like Pietersen, the cricketer, taking on the cricket establishment, but since I have always admired his bravery and foolhardiness, I shall have a go. I think there is a dangerous presumption in this debate that the secondary ticketing market is a bad thing and that people would like to do without it. Balancing that, I accept, there is a genuine belief that by increasing regulation, by demanding more information, we will eliminate fraud. I think that approach is misguided. I do not think that you necessarily end fraud by increasing regulation.

The secondary ticketing market fulfils a very useful purpose for people, particularly those who buy tickets and are often made to buy them a year ahead of the event. When they do not want to use them, they can dispose of them appropriately; 70% of people buying tickets want that secondary market to continue. We should be supporting recognised and established brand leaders that work in this market and do all that is required. They guarantee their tickets, and people should use them; we should encourage more people to use those established brands. If they did that, the market would work better; that is how to attack fraud.

If you are attacking fraud, where else do you look? You look first of all at the computer-operated systems that enable people to buy mass tickets. That is where you ought to direct your attacks, and there are some encouraging signs there. But you also need to question the sports operators. Too many of them are greedy. They give their tickets to people in hospitality, who then do not need them and try to dispose of them through secondary markets. If the sports operators want an improvement, the first thing that they could do is to improve the affordability of their tickets, so they are not forcing the price up, which encourages this sort of fraud.

Ticket sellers are already subject to the regulations, as we have heard. Is it a good Conservative or Liberal principle that, if the regulations are not working, you add to them? Surely you question them. Are we really saying that just adding a name to a ticket will eliminate fraud? I do not believe that either. We should encourage established secondary sellers, so that they can help us to undermine the bad sellers of tickets—the touts, if you like. Online selling and ticketing is actually a huge improvement in terms of control on the old idea whereby tickets were sold by street traders. So instead of having an emotional look at this issue—and I accept that there is a lot of emotion about it—we should look at it frankly and in great detail to see what we are doing here, rather than adding to regulation that is not working and not actually looking at the real areas where fraud is being perpetrated.

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I have responses to the questions from my noble friend Lord Holmes and others, which I think I will pass on in bilateral discussion. I agree with my noble friend Lady Wilcox that rewriting the law is the wrong way to tackle this issue. Legislation exists and I think it can be enforced better. We are committed to taking action and to keeping this issue on the agenda. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Deben]

Can the Minister help us in this way? She has put forward a number of changes that she intends to make in bilateral discussions and in guidance. Will she agree to take this away and see whether what she has already said can be included in the Bill as statutory requirements? If she were able to do that, I think many of us would be able to support her. The argument has been quite clear that no one is trying to stop the secondary market and no one is trying to do the things that she fears. All we are trying to do is to stand up for the consumer. If she could just give us that, I am sure that we would support her.