Water Bill

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Moynihan

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)]

My Lords, government Amendments 1 to 12 and 18 address the subject of retail exits. The question of whether an incumbent water company should be able to exit the market for retail services to non-household customers has been discussed at all stages of the passage of the Bill through your Lordships’ House and another place. Most recently, it was raised in debate on amendments tabled by my noble friend Lord Moynihan and the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Grantchester, at Report.

Having listened extremely carefully to the thoughtful and well informed contributions to the debate on retail exits, I undertook to consider the matter further, with the aim of bringing back government amendments to respond to the views of the House. The proposed new clauses are intended to do just that.

The attached provisions reflect the key policy objectives of the previous amendments on this subject. They offer incumbent water companies the option to exit voluntarily from the non-household retail market, subject to the consent of the Secretary of State. I said before that this was not a simple matter, and indeed it is not. Enabling exit will require a number of changes to the Water Industry Act 1991—for example, to address issues around the incumbent’s duties to supply and other statutory obligations to customers.

In making this commitment, I put on the record that the only practical way of delivering this objective would be to take wide-ranging powers, and that is what the amendments seek to deliver. Although the enabling powers are, of necessity, broad, we have sought to provide as much detail of the nature of the changes to be made as possible. I recognise that your Lordships have limited time in which to undertake detailed scrutiny of these clauses. However, as I said, the broad policy has been widely discussed throughout the passage of this Bill.

Further work will be needed to consider the practical implications of exits and to develop the detailed policies that will underpin the use of these powers. Broad consultation will, therefore, be essential. Following these detailed discussions with all interested parties, there will be a further opportunity for parliamentary scrutiny under the affirmative procedure.

Several key policy issues about how an exit policy should be shaped and delivered are still to be resolved. For example, discussions in your Lordships’ House and elsewhere have mooted a number of different models for the transfer of customers from the exiting incumbent to a retail licensee. One model suggested is the transfer of customers to an associate licensee within the wider structure of a parent company. Others have suggested that incumbent companies which no longer wish to provide retail services may just want a simple route out of the retail market. Some have identified customers as an asset to be sold for profit, while others see them as a liability to be transferred. Ongoing dialogue with the industry, customers and others will be essential to inform the decisions about how exit will operate in practice. Our guiding principle must be to ensure that customers are protected and that they are no worse off as a result of the exit.

These provisions are therefore intended to provide government with the flexibility necessary to respond to the views of industry and its customers about the best way to deliver the new regulatory framework for the sector. They provide the Secretary of State with powers to put in place, through regulations, a framework which enables exits. This will entail a restructuring of the key provisions in the Water Industry Act 1991, the regulation of the industry and suppliers’ relationships with their customers.

The purpose of these provisions is to permit incumbent water or sewerage companies, with the consent of the Secretary of State, to stop providing any retail services to current or future non-household customers in their areas of appointment. The services will then be provided by one or more retail licensees. This is likely to lead to a consolidation of retail businesses. Exit will be irreversible and result in the incumbent divesting itself of some of its statutory supply duties in relation to non-household premises. However, incumbents will retain all their current responsibilities for household customers.

In summary therefore, these proposed new clauses enable the Secretary of State to make exit regulations, which would allow any incumbent water company whose area is wholly or mainly in England to apply to exit the non-household retail market for that area. The regulations may include grounds for refusing an exit application and provide for the transfer of customers to an eligible licensee. The regulations may also make provision for what happens in the area from which the company has exited after the exit has taken place. The powers make provision for the protection of both household and non-household customers affected by the exit.

Throughout the debates on this matter in both Houses, there has been a clear consensus that exit must be undertaken voluntarily. We have stated on a number of occasions that any suggestion that a provision could be used to force exit and drive legal separation of an incumbent’s retail and wholesale business risks undermining investor confidence in the sector. Amendments 7 and 9 ensure that the regulations can provide for important checks and balances as regards the conditions under which divestment and exit may, or may not, be required by the competition authorities.

We all agree that we must ensure that customers are protected. The regulations must ensure the protection of both those non-household customers that are subject to a transfer and the household customers who would remain with the incumbent. There is currently a range of statutory protections for customers in place. These are being reinforced by protections for the reformed competitive market in the Bill. For example, we are reforming the interim supply duty, or supplier of last resort, in Clauses 31 and 32. The statutory protections in the current retail market generally rest on the duties of the incumbent. These new provisions on retail exits are therefore required to enable regulations to rework the relevant statutory duties and obligations, in the event of a transfer of customers to a licensee. For example, we have provided for price regulation to be introduced for licensees, as well as regulation over the terms and conditions that they can offer to customers. We have provided for incumbent companies to be relieved of the interim supply duty, which currently requires them to serve customers when their previous supplier defaults. This role would then have to be taken up by the licensed market.

In addition, Amendments 1 to 12 and Amendment 18 enable the Secretary of State to make regulations which put in place safeguards requiring the exiting incumbent to take certain steps prior to making an application, such as, importantly, consulting its customers. The regulations may also set out the grounds on which such an application may be refused: for example, if the company could not demonstrate that exit was in the best interests of its customers. These provisions will enable us to put in place a stable and transparent framework within which exits can take place. I beg to move.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for providing a comprehensive solution to the issue of exit, for tabling these amendments and for his clear explanation of the Government’s intent. While the legislative drafting is more extensive than some of us had anticipated, these amendments achieve the desired effect of facilitating a clearer framework for competition. Additionally, the greater transparency on cost allocation that such a voluntary transfer mechanism brings will help to ensure that the incumbent companies are less able to adjust their cost allocations to the detriment of household customers.

This transparency is fundamental to effective economic regulation and the policing of effective markets. It will allow companies to organise their businesses in the way that they consider to be in the best interests of their shareholders and indeed their customers. Allowing exit to occur voluntarily, as confirmed by the Minister, will allow transfer mechanisms to enable more competitive third parties to enter the non-household water and sewerage retail market to the benefit of business customers, as has proved to be the case in Scotland. Above all, as demonstrated by both Oxera and Macquarie, exit will save customers unnecessary cost.

I am very grateful to the Government for confirming today that they will now consult fully on safeguards, consulting particularly with those who represent the interests of the customers, given that the powers granted through these amendments confirm the opportunity, not the obligation, for incumbent water and sewerage companies to propose transfer schemes to the Secretary of State for his consideration.

As tabled, the amendments place a considerable degree of power in the hands of Ministers, notably to adjust the powers and duties of key industry stakeholders, including Ofwat. While this could be problematic were the powers to be used to their full extent, I am confident from what the Minister has said that there is absolutely no intention to undermine the freedom of manoeuvre of the regulator.

With the clauses soon to be in the Bill, I hope, it will be important to enter into constructive discussion and engagement in order to consult widely and urgently to meet what I hope will be the reasonable deadline of market opening in 2017. I also agree with noble Lords who emphasised at an earlier stage that it is also very important to secure customer protection on retail exit.

I hope that the amendments will be welcomed on all sides of the House and by all those who have taken part in the debates over exit, with the request that the Government will give a firm and unequivocal commitment to using their new powers to facilitate efficient and orderly market entry and exit. If so, the benefits will be considerable for business customers. Once this House, in future legislation, has the opportunity to review the working of the market for business customers, I hope that it will not subsequently hesitate to move forward to deliver competition to the household sector as well.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Moynihan

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, that is a helpful intervention.

I thank my noble friend Lord Moynihan and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for their amendments. We once again have two amendments seeking to allow retail exits but with slightly different approaches. Both amendments would allow the Secretary of State to make regulations that would allow an incumbent water company to transfer its customers to a person holding a licence. Amendment 40, tabled by my noble friend Lord Moynihan, would allow for transfers to a licensed associate of the incumbent, while Amendment 54, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, would allow for transfers to any company that holds a water supply licence. Amendment 54 does not allow for the exit of the retail sewerage market but I assume that the intention is to allow incumbent companies that provide both water and sewerage retail services to exit those markets. As with other amendments we have seen, both these amendments allow for non-household customers to be transferred through powers laid out in regulations, but do not allow us to fill in any gaps relating to who will provide retail services to new customers following a transfer or how we would treat transferred customers, including those who wish to return to the incumbent.

Allowing customers to be transferred does not mean that the incumbent has completely exited the retail market. The incumbent will still have certain responsibilities to non-household customers in its area of appointment and will therefore remain very much within that market unless certain duties are removed from it or transferred to the licensee which takes over the customers. It is a halfway house that does not benefit anyone, least of all the incumbent which wants to avoid dealing with non-household customers completely. The value of exits to incumbents would be limited unless the ultimate duty of supply is also removed. Household customers who remain with the incumbent may even end up funding this residual capacity of the incumbent to serve the remaining non-household customers.

But, as I hinted earlier, I have listened carefully to the thoughtful and well informed contributions to the debate on retail exits both today and in Committee. It is clearly an issue on which many noble Lords hold strong views. There is widespread support for enabling voluntary exit from the non-household market, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State. We remain convinced that such approval would be critical to avoid any perception that this will permit forced separation, given the impact that that could have on investment in the sector. I therefore propose to take this issue away and consider it very carefully before Third Reading. I will aim to table an amendment that will build on the objectives of Amendments 40 and 54 in the names of my noble friend Lord Moynihan and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, respectively, which seek to provide a means for voluntary non-household exit.

I should like to put on the record now that the only practical way of delivering what the noble Lords are seeking would be to take a very wide-ranging power. Extensive changes to the Water Industry Act 1991 would be needed, not least to address issues relating to the incumbent’s duties to supply and its other statutory obligations to customers. Given this commitment to respond to the mood of the House on this important matter, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and his colleagues for their support for the series of amendments we have debated on this issue as the Bill has progressed through your Lordships’ House. I also thank very much indeed the officials at Defra who have worked on this Bill. It is highly complex and it has gained far more prominence than I believe they expected at the outset. Not the least of that is because of the appalling weather we have had over the past three months and the focus now on the Flood Re insurance proposals, which have understandably generated a huge amount of interest across the country and have resulted in a greatly increased workload for the officials. They have been responsive, helpful, polite and informative at all stages, and I am grateful for that.

I thank my noble friend the Minister for his comments. I am pleased and not a little surprised to hear that he intends to come back at Third Reading with a government amendment along lines that I would strongly support. I thank him for his consideration of the importance of exit. I hear the relevance of the consequential amendments that will be forthcoming if we do not give a fairly broad-based power to the Secretary of State, but it remains my view that in order to have a competitive and effective market, we need exit. In the circumstances, I believe that it is appropriate to grant that power through this Bill. Again, I express my thanks to the Minister and to all noble Lords who have supported me on this issue. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Moynihan

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

I can count on the noble Lord to think of something that I did not arrive in the Committee equipped to answer. If I may, I will write to him.

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords on all sides of the Committee for the interest they have shown in this issue. Their contributions have demonstrated how critical it is and what should be in and what is out. I place on record my thanks to my noble friend the Minister for a very comprehensive reply on a lot of issues that have been raised on all sides of the Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is a noble friend on this issue since I am in complete agreement with him. I do not agree with him on every occasion but I certainly do on this one. I say to him that it is not just that some householders did not buy their properties as band H properties; it is that there is no absolute correlation between personal wealth and band H occupancy, a point that I sought to demonstrate at Second Reading. If you accept that principle, surely it is wrong that band H should be automatically excluded. Indeed, the Minister, in his reply, mentioned the 45 properties that were in need of support; that is, owned by people who were not wealthy but would be automatically excluded as the Bill is drafted.

My noble friends Lord Ashton of Hyde and Lord Cathcart mentioned how complicated it would be to change the Bill to take appropriate care of small businesses. I agree that the Bill is complicated; it is complicated throughout. However, surely the thoughts of this House are with the SMEs, the pubs, the guest houses and the farms that have been devastated by the recent floods and cannot now secure affordable insurance provision. They have been hit incredibly hard. If it is not through Flood Re, surely we should be looking to deliver support for SMEs through an appropriate provision. I argue that the Bill is the right vehicle to do that.

I appreciate that my noble friend Lord Cathcart was eloquent in the detail he went into to secure his insurance for his egg business—or “an” egg business, to be fair to him. Such expertise cannot be expected to reside with every publican or small business at the centre of communities serving important commercial and social roles. We should look very carefully at this matter at a later stage.

My amendment simply allows us to study that in detail. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his support. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours for highlighting the fact that this market will have markedly changed in the past three months. Of that, there is no doubt whatever. It is incumbent on your Lordships’ House and the Government to look at the extent to which that market has changed and to which we need to respond to those market changes.

While I hope that further consideration will be given to these issues—I, for one, will seek to bring them back for further consideration—for the time being, I place on record again my thanks to the Minister for his answer and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Water Bill

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Moynihan

Tuesday 4th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, as noble Lords have explained, the purpose of these amendments is to ensure that access to the retail market is regulated to minimise burdens and make access to the market simpler. I agree that requiring all licensees to negotiate with each of the 21 incumbent water companies to enter the market would represent a considerable burden on the market participants and undermine what we are trying to achieve with our reforms.

Schedule 4 of the Water Act 2003 inserted current new Sections 66A(2) and 66D(2) into the Water Industry Act. These placed the incumbent water company under a duty to make a water supply agreement on certain terms agreed with the licensee or determined by Ofwat. This duty has been interpreted to mean that each individual agreement between an incumbent water company and licensee must be negotiated, or imposed by Ofwat where the parties are unable to agree. Ofwat has produced guidance to facilitate negotiations, but the parties to these agreements could ignore the guidance and come to their own agreement. This is clearly a considerable barrier to entry into the retail market in particular and one that provides unco-operative incumbents with an opportunity to delay the making of agreements, about which the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, and my noble friend Lord Selborne have rightly expressed concerns.

New Sections 66A and 66D will be repealed by this Bill, and replaced with a requirement that agreements between incumbent water companies and licensees must be in accordance with new, enforceable charging rules and codes produced by Ofwat. This will reduce burdens and costs on all parties, and speed up customer switching when the market expands to include 1.2 million potential customers. Schedule 4 creates the same requirements for sewerage arrangements.

There has been some confusion as to the wording of some parts of Schedules 2 and 4 that might lead some to assume that a licensee will be able to enter the retail market only through a complex series of negotiations with every incumbent water company in England. For example, new Section 66DA states that codes may include provisions about procedures in connection with making a Section 66D agreement. This is not the case. We need some flexibility about allowing a certain level of negotiation in some cases, particularly for the upstream markets; negotiations might address water quality and environmental conditions specific to a locality in a water company’s area. We also want licensees to have some flexibility to negotiate innovative new ways of doing things. Market codes will be able to set out the circumstances when such negotiations would be appropriate or inappropriate. I draw noble Lords’ attention to new Section 66DA(2)(c) and (d) and new Section 117F(2)(c) and (d).

My noble friend Lord Moynihan referred to functional separation and we will discuss specific amendments on that matter in a little while, and perhaps I can address that at that point. He also referred to the regime in Scotland and the fact that it provides only for regulated access. Scottish legislation is silent on the need for WICS to produce codes to make the market work. WICS took the decision to regulate access to the retail market and Ofwat and the Open Water programme are taking the same approach. It is worth noting that there is no competition in Scotland for wholesale supplies of water. The two markets are therefore clearly not directly comparable.

I am happy to tell my noble friend that paragraph 5 of Schedule 2, which inserts new Section 66E into the Water Industry Act 1991, and new Section 117L, inserted by Schedule 4, already provide Ofwat with powers to regulate these charges between incumbents and licensees, and that Ofwat may make rules about their publication.

The Bill regulates licensees’ access to the supply and sewerage systems of the quasi-monopolistic incumbents only. We see no need to regulate arrangements between licensees themselves, as they all start on the same footing. That is competition and it will be left to market forces. I hope that my noble friend will therefore feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for participating in this exchange of views. I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Selborne for his apposite comments. As he is aware, the Bill anticipates a relatively large number of codes. The experience of other industries, such as the electricity industry, shows the importance of keeping codes as simple as possible. For example, a single market code could help ensure that any central market system works by applying the same rules to all companies and retailers. Similarly, to help create a level playing field, I very much hope that retailers have a single point of contact with each water or sewerage company. Each company should have a code which every retailer must follow. To me that is an essential prerequisite for operating a successful market.

It is an appropriate moment to echo the comments that have been made on all sides of the House about how constructive, supportive and helpful my noble friend the Minister has been throughout the process since the publication of the Bill, through its early consideration and in the many meetings that he has hosted to provide clarity on this complex measure. I am grateful to him for his comments. I noted that he recognised that there was at least scope for misunderstanding on some aspects of the clauses that are relevant to the amendments that I have proposed. I agree with what he said about the codes which Ofwat may issue under the new Sections 66DA and 117F. They could be used but I am concerned that the current drafting does not adequately recognise the necessary scope that he has outlined. There will be merit in considering in detail what he has said this evening and reflecting on it before determining whether we revisit this subject at a later stage in our proceedings.

I very much appreciate the support of the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester. His comments echoed very clearly the concerns that I have tried to lay before your Lordships’ House. This is an important issue. If the Bill is to be enacted and then operate effectively in the market, this is a subject which needs to be absolutely clear. If we can help to improve the position by amending the legislation in order to achieve that clarity and efficiency of operation, we will add value to the Bill. I hope that we will be able to take this away and review whether or not we will come back with an improved amendment at a later stage of our proceedings. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Pesticides: Bees

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Moynihan

Wednesday 13th March 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Moynihan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to support European Commission proposals, to be discussed at the Standing Committee on Phytopharmaceuticals on 14 March, to reduce the use of a range of neonicotinoid pesticides hazardous to honey bees.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, the Government take very seriously the need to protect honey bees and other pollinators. We are completing our scientific assessment of neonicotinoids and have carried out new field trials. We have urged the Commission to base any proposal on a proper assessment of the science and not to make a hasty decision which might have significant knock-on impacts. We have concerns about the Commission’s current proposal as it does not appear to follow this course.

[Lord Moynihan]

My Lords, given that the European Commission is not proposing an outright ban on neonicotinoids but recommending their suspension, under the precautionary principle of using just three pesticides on crops attractive to honey bees as further research is undertaken, will my noble friend the Minister explain to the House why France, Germany, Italy and other European countries will support the recommendations of the European Food Safety Authority, which has concluded that these insecticides pose “an unacceptable danger” to bees? If we vote against this proposal tomorrow, there is scientific evidence that British bees, already in serious decline, will suffer.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend not only for his Question today but for his long-standing interest and for initiating a recent debate in your Lordships’ House on bees. I assure noble Lords that, contrary to what they may read in the press, we approach this question with an open mind. We are, indeed, doing further analysis on fieldwork we have had carried out specifically to address this issue because it is vital that what we do is proportionate and based on the science.

Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (Juxtaposed Controls) (Amendment) Order 2011

Debate between Lord De Mauley and Lord Moynihan

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Moynihan]

First, I apologise that I was working on other matters Olympic in Stratford and therefore missed the opening remarks. I will place on record, as chairman of the British Olympic Association and as a member of the European Olympic Committee executive, the thanks of many national Olympic committees—205 committees will be coming here—for the professional and courteous way in which the Government, in particular my colleagues in the Home Office, have been receptive to the many concerns that have been raised, particularly about access for Olympic family members to the Games. I will place on record the thanks of all sides of the House and Committee for the hard work that has gone into this. It is of enormous importance that there is smooth entry, in particular for the athletes and their immediate entourage, to ensure a successful Games.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising that point. I share his gratitude to a lot of people who are working very hard to make these Games a success. These statutory instruments will help us to deliver a safe and secure Games by enabling the UK Border Agency to maintain a proportionate level of its usual security checks on visa national Games family members seeking to enter the UK. I commend the order.