Afghanistan

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Wednesday 18th August 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I do not think I shall ever forget the extraordinary pictures we saw the other day of human desperation at Kabul airport. That is one of those dramatic pictures you never forget. The most extraordinary thing about the whole incident was that I got the impression the British Government were extremely surprised by events and had not prepared for them at all. I would have thought that anyone responsible for Afghanistan would have considered the possibility of a Taliban offensive and decided to plan to meet it. However, as far as I could see, no contingency plans were in operation at all, which is most extraordinary. I would have hoped there was a plan years ago focused on that contingency and that it would have been exercised from time to time to keep people alert.

I fear that the British Government became extraordinarily complacent and, as people do when they become complacent, began to believe their own propaganda—that Afghanistan was doing well and was well on the way to becoming a stable democracy, as we all hoped it would. There was no evidence for that at all. On the contrary, it was quite clear that the real curses of Afghanistan—corruption, war and the exploitation of women—are as constant there as they have been in previous generations, and are very difficult to eradicate.

Nevertheless, in the circumstances we must ask ourselves what we will do. In this excellent debate, I think there has been consensus that our primary, absolute obligation is to try to save the lives of those who worked with or for us in Afghanistan, whether as interpreters, aid workers or whatever. They must be extracted from Afghanistan as soon as possible and generously treated when we have got them back. Nothing is as important as that.

At the same time, as has already been suggested, we need to have a thorough look at the way in which we make our foreign policy—whom we consult, which countries we are prepared to co-operate with and which we are not—and to develop a new doctrine approach to foreign policy co-ordination. For many years we did not really need foreign policy co-ordination, because we had a special relationship with the United States; we spoke to them and that was good enough. Then we joined the European Union and again we were within a structure in so far as the European Union was concerned, developing co-ordinated foreign policies, which was a good idea in principle.

With both those things now gone, I am afraid that relations with the Americans will take a lot of repairing, so we need to think again about how we handle these things, who we rely on as allies and who we want to speak to about various problems and share the issues of the day with. This should be done systematically, and hopefully quite quickly, because we do not have very much time.

This has been an extremely valuable debate. A lot of people have asked pertinent and sensible questions, and they deserve a considered response. It would not be reasonable to expect the Government to give such a response in a brief wind-up speech, but I hope they will be generous in writing letters to Members who have taken part and will set out the Government’s position on the various points that have been made. That would greatly add to the utility of the whole exercise of Parliament—

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con)]

I am afraid I have to interrupt the noble Lord. We thank him for his contribution and perhaps we can move to the next speaker, the noble Lord, Lord Gadhia.

Update to Parliament

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

First, the Prime Minister and this Government have made it clear—it was the first thing that I said in response to the first comments—that we have the highest respect for our judiciary, their independence and the work that they do. I am happy to put that on record again. In relation to the noble Lord’s question about the legal advice, as I said, I sought and received confirmation that the Prorogation was lawful. Therefore, on that basis, I attended the Privy Council.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall be exceedingly brief. A quality shines through the whole of this affair which is reflected in the way that the Prime Minister casually contemplated breaking the law. It was certainly reflected in his attitude towards Prorogation, in his complete lack of any kind of contrition in the light of the court’s judgment and in the appalling drafting of the Statement that the noble Baroness read out to us this afternoon. That quality is arrogance or, if noble Lords prefer a Greek word, hubris. Those closer to the Prime Minister than I am or wish to be, or those who hope for a political future for him, might do well in the next few days to ask him whether he wishes that quality to be the mark of the rest of his Administration, whether that be short or long.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

All I can say to the noble Lord is that we acted in good faith and in the belief that our approach was lawful and constitutional. I know that the noble Lord is extremely concerned about the negotiations with the EU and ensuring that we come to a good deal. The Government are fully committed to the negotiations and are attempting to achieve a result so that we can have a strong, positive relationship with our EU partners going forward, we can leave the EU with a deal that is good for both sides and we can build on the strong relationship that we want to have going forward.

Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansarad): House of Lords
Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, I think it is the turn of this side of the House—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Conservatives.

[Lord Naseby]

My Lords, it was my privilege for five years of my life to be Deputy Speaker in the other place. In that time, I took through the Maastricht Bill with 28 days and five all-night sittings for five clauses. I submit to your Lordships that we should not be trying to filibuster in this area. As far as I can see, if I were sitting in the other place this has all the signs of a filibuster if I ever saw one. With due deference to those who have spoken already and to the Leader of the Opposition, I say: let us proceed with today’s business, and for the next three days or whatever it may be. None of us in this Chamber knows what is to happen in the next two weeks or whether there will be a normal pause between Committee and Report. Why do we not just wait and see what happens, and then act accordingly? It is not for this House to try to take the initiative away from the Government of the day.

Leaving the European Union

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said to noble Lords, I am not going to speculate on the decisions of the House of Commons. A Motion is down to which it is very clear MPs will table amendments. There will be votes on that. I am not going to stand here and speculate on what the outcome of that may be.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Prime Minister had ever had any intention of probing the scope for consensual solutions to the problems of Brexit, she surely would have done that ages ago, preferably at the beginning of the process. She would not have waited two and a half years—two and a half years of confusion and crisis—before she did so. What she did last week was simply a political gimmick to try to get out of a difficult situation. What she has come up with today are more political gimmicks. The Prime Minister is really interested only in survival, is she not? She wants to play for time and to take the British people unwillingly over the cliff edge of a deal-free, hard Brexit and thereby to gain, or regain, the support of the European Research Group and stay in power a little longer.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I entirely disagree with the noble Lord. As I have said, the Prime Minister is focused on finding solutions that are negotiable and can command sufficient support in the House. I gently suggest to him that all other parties and leaderships have agreed to talk to the Prime Minister, but the leader of his party has not. It would be very good if he would change that position and get involved in these conversations, because they are so important.

EU Council

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 17th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As my noble friend will be aware, the Government have regularly updated this House, the other House and Select Committees on our no-deal preparations, and we will continue to do so.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

Is it not the case that people are allowed to decide themselves how they vote? If they wish to change their mind from time to time, they have the right to do that. But on what possible basis of justification do the Government think they can dictate to the British people that they should not be allowed to vote to remain in the European Union if they want to?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Parliament asked the people to make a decision and they did so in the referendum. That is what we are now delivering.

Brexit: Negotiations

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

With the greatest respect, I am afraid I disagree with the noble Lord. Protecting the union and ensuring that we uphold the Good Friday agreement has been central to much of the negotiations, and the Prime Minister has been absolutely clear about that. That is delivered by the fact that we have got rid of the Northern Ireland backstop, and we have a new, UK-wide temporary customs arrangement which does protect the integrity of our union.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, in the referendum campaign the most prominent leader of the Brexit side, Mr Boris Johnson, famously said that we can have our cake and eat it too. Another prominent leader, Michael Gove, said during that campaign that, the day we leave, all the cards will be in our hands. In the light of events, does the Minister feel the British public were given honest and responsible advice on that occasion?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I respect the British people. They made a decision for us to leave, and we are delivering on that decision.

Brexit: Border Control

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 29th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, we will hear from Plaid Cymru.

European Council

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 2nd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Baroness will know that we have passed the sanctions Bill, which will allow us to set out our own legal framework. We have been clear that we are looking to replicate the sanctions in which we are currently involved with the EU, and we now have the legal mechanism to be able to start to do that.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, as has already been referred to, the Prime Minister said the other day that she regarded our continued membership of Europol and the other security agencies and institutions of the EU as a matter of life and death—“lives would be at risk” if we left them was, I think, her phrase. If she really believed that, should she not, as Home Secretary, and therefore having the responsibility of dealing with those institutions at that time, have said that clearly to the British public at the time of the referendum? The British public never heard that opinion expressed at the time by the Home Secretary, as she then was, and it was apparently a vital matter which we were determining by the way we voted in that referendum.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think the Prime Minister has been very clear: we have given a very firm commitment to the future security of Europe and said that we want to continue to make a major contribution. We have pointed out some of the issues we still need to overcome in our discussions and we will continue to do that, because we want a strong relationship on security with our EU partners.

United Kingdom-European Union Future Economic Partnership

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Well, as the Statement made clear, if, as part of our future partnership, Parliament passes, for instance, an identical law to an EU law, it may make sense for our courts to look at the appropriate ECJ judgments so that they can interpret those laws consistently.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

It is an unconvincing Statement in many ways but there are three particular delusions and contradictions in it. First, the Prime Minister still has not explained how you can have two countries with different tariffs and no controls at the border, but that is exactly what she promised the Irish before Christmas. Secondly, and very importantly, the Prime Minister is still under this extraordinarily naive delusion that she can sign trade agreements with Mr Trump without obliging us to take American agricultural products, which is quite inconceivable, and that she can sign a trade agreement with China while retaining quotas on Chinese steel imports. She obviously does not know Mr Xi Jinping. She also does not take seriously Mr Modi’s statements about the need for Indian immigration as a priority, in the event that he signs trade agreements with this country.

Thirdly, it really must be almost unprecedented in history for a Government to adopt policies that are directly designed to weaken a major staple of economic activity in that country, which is exactly what is happening here with the rejection of the idea that we should retain passports for the single market in financial services, banking and insurance. Will the Minister commit to making a study of the economic costs of that very self-destructive policy?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Well, I am afraid that I do not agree with the noble Lord’s extremely pessimistic view of every aspect of both the Statement and the Government’s approach. We believe that we will be able to develop a deep, special and productive relationship with the EU, which is what we are committed to, and the Prime Minister in the Statement set out the principles underpinning that.

In relation to the noble Lord’s point about passporting, the reason why we are not looking for passporting is that we understand that it is intrinsic to the single market, and it would require us to be subject to a single rule book over which we have no say. We are looking for a collaborative, objective framework that is reciprocal, mutually agreed and permanent, and therefore stable for businesses—and we believe that we can achieve this.

Gaza

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Cross Benches.

Brexit Negotiations

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I entirely agree with my noble friend, who said it far better than I did.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has got her sums wrong. The country is already 15% poorer as a result of the devaluation which followed Brexit and our growth rate has gone down by 1% per annum—about £20 billion, which is twice our annual contribution to the EU. We shall in fact have fewer resources for all those good causes, such as the NHS, education and housing, that she mentioned as a result of leaving the EU, not more. I ask the noble Baroness a simple question. Is it not the case that if you have no customs controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic, then Northern Ireland and the Republic are within a common customs area or customs union and that if you have no customs controls between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, then Northern Ireland and Great Britain are within a common customs area or customs union? In those circumstances, we in Great Britain are in the same common customs area or union as the Republic of Ireland and, since the Republic of Ireland will remain in the European Union, we, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland as well would all be in the same EU common customs area. Irrespective of the declarations which the Government might like to make to the contrary, no doubt for party management reasons, is the reality not that as a result of these negotiations we will, de facto, remain—and if so, I congratulate the Government on it—within the common customs area of the European Union?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I cannot be clearer that I have been already. The whole of the UK, including Northern Ireland, will leave the EU customs union and the EU single market. Nothing in the agreement alters that fundamental fact.

Brexit: Irish Border

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrat Benches.

European Council

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 23rd October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord will be aware that we have published, I think, 14 various types of papers over the last few weeks, some of which were on security. In fact, the EU 27 has made clear in its negotiation guidelines that it stands ready to establish partnerships in the fight against terrorism and international crime as well as on security, defence and foreign policy. We are working on those details. We certainly value, for instance, the role of Europol in helping law enforcement agencies co-ordinate investigations, and there is good precedent for third-country participation in it. Structures are already in place, which we will be looking to involve ourselves in. We want a relationship in this area, and understand the importance of it, but obviously the detail will be for the negotiations.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

The Government claim to have a magic formula for customs. Will they set out the full technical detail of how that works, what it would cost and who would pay that cost? Until they have done those things, no one will be able to evaluate their proposal or agree to it, and there will not be any progress on that item.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid I missed the beginning of that question because of other noble Lords speaking.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

Will the Government set out, in full technical detail, their proposal for creating a customs barrier in Ireland without any infrastructure on the ground?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the noble Lord will be well aware, there is absolute commitment on both sides to ensure that we do not return to the border of the past. The discussions will continue in the negotiations, and when we are ready to put forward proposals, we will do so.

Health and Social Care

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Thursday 12th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

I shall give the Minister another chance. He did not even begin to answer the question from my noble friend Lord Hunt. Why did the Government drop Dilnot?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, we will hear from the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton.

Brexit: UK Plans

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I would not dream of telling the people of Ireland what to do. On my noble friend’s question about prison numbers, I am afraid I do not have those figures to hand but I am happy to see whether they are available and I will write to him. In relation to the financial settlement, as he will be well aware, a lot of work has been done across the piece looking at the contributions that we have made and the settlement that we may come to. As I said, we have set out that we do not want our partners to fear that they will need to pay more or receive less over the remainder of the current budget plan. Of course, all these issues will be discussed in detail during the negotiations.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

The Government remain in complete denial about the very considerable costs of leaving the single market and, equally, about the quite significant costs of leaving the customs union. There is nothing at all about costs in either of the White Papers. If the Leader looks at pages 24 and 25 of the Customs Bill White Paper, she will see a number of things referred to which represent considerable costs to traders. There is a suggestion that traders will need new intermediaries and forwarding agents, which they did not previously utilise. It is suggested that they will need to introduce new IT systems and spend money on consultants. Have the Government made any estimate of what the cost will be to traders in this country from the restrictions that they are intending to impose when we leave the customs union? It is usually considered a good sign of honest and competent governance or administration, in the private sector or the public sector, not to commit to go into any venture without having some idea of what the cost is. The Government have not told us the cost of this gratuitous attempt to pull us out of the single market and the customs union.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the noble Lord himself said, we have published two White Papers today, setting out our objectives for both the new customs arrangements and our future trade policy. Of course, we have a continuing dialogue with businesses involved in this and we will make sure that their voices are heard and any issues that they have are reflected in the work we do. But that is the reason we have published a White Paper, to make sure that that discussion is had.

Brexit: Triggering Article 50

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Statement acknowledged the fact that for some people this is a day they have waited for but for many it is a day of great disappointment. The Statement also said that we need to bring the country together now and work for the best deal. We need to have an optimistic outlook for Britain because we are a great country and we can make a great success of our future.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We have been very clear that we will be as transparent as we can, but we will not give away our negotiating hand.

[Lord Davies of Stamford]

The Statement mentions opportunities on several occasions but does not say what opportunities the Government have in mind. It just provides a string of vacuous adjectives and, in true PR style, mentions the word “together” about 15 times. Will the Leader concede that actually a very large number of opportunities are being destroyed—the opportunity to live and work in 27 other countries, the opportunity to travel in those countries while having the benefit of the local healthcare system, the opportunity for educational exchanges, the opportunity for leading scientific research programmes funded by the EU, the opportunities presented by 35 free trade agreements between the EU and other parts of the world, and the opportunities of the single market itself? Do the Government hope that the public will just forget about these important opportunities that are now being wantonly abandoned?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said, we are looking for a new, deep and special relationship with the EU and we believe it will be a very fruitful relationship. In terms of other opportunities, we are looking for excellent trade agreements with countries across the world. We have fantastic bilateral agreements with countries across the world. We are looking to be a global nation.

Brexit: Single Market

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Wednesday 14th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, this really is not helpful. We have time to get a number of questions in. It is the turn of the Conservative Benches, then we will come to the Labour Benches. This really is not helping us make sure we can get our points across, and frankly it is not helping how the House looks to the public.

Employment: Tribunals

Debate between Lord Davies of Stamford and Baroness Evans of Bowes Park

Thursday 25th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

My Lords, this will be a very fair review, which will look at all factors. It is absolutely critical to ensure that we understand what is happening. As I previously said, of course fees have had an impact, but they were not introduced on their own. The Government also brought forward early mandatory conciliation which, as I said, is having a good impact. But the system was not perfect before the introduction of fees. Individuals and employees with legitimate claims who were forced to go through acrimonious tribunals now have the option of mandatory conciliation. Businesses often had to face speculative claims, which obviously was very distressing and difficult for them to deal with, and the taxpayer was footing a £71 million bill. This review will look at all the factors involved and, if the Government believe that further action needs to be taken, of course it will be brought to the House and a consultation will happen in the normal way.

[Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab)]

My Lords, let me ask a question which I have asked the Government before, both in writing and orally, and never had other than a completely evasive response. As the Minister and the whole House know, there are very widespread allegations of job discrimination among job applicants. When jobcentres encounter prima facie evidence of job discrimination against their applicants, what is their policy? Do they keep a record of those occasions? If so, what are the numbers for the latest period available? Do they take legal action or support the applicant in taking legal action under the law? They can hardly expect the applicant himself or herself to have the resources to pursue legal action. If they do, on how many occasions has such legal action been taken or supported?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am afraid that I will have to take that question back and return to the noble Lord at a later stage.