Dog Control Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Redesdale

Friday 4th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, my amendments were not tabled last night, but they ended up on the Marshalled List then because of the way in which they went through. The noble Lord’s amendments were tabled at 5.30 in the afternoon. That is why I was slightly surprised. I apologise to the noble Lord for not getting back to him that week. I think that that week was slightly disrupted because we had been going through the night.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, asked why I made the remarks that I made the next morning. Private Members’ Bills are quite hard. It is very easy to take lightly the amount of work done by a large number of people. I know that he would not take that position, but I do know that there were some very unhappy people and that I had to talk to a large number of them to explain the position.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords—

[Lord Redesdale]

My Lords, just a second; I am coming to the point which the noble Lord raised. I then sat in on the amendment that he was talking about. He was berating the Government for the late tabling of amendments. On that basis, I raised this issue myself because there are few opportunities to do so when legislation goes through this House. I thought it appropriate to do so.

I also raised the issue of wrecking amendments because the proposal that Clause 1 should stand part goes to the very heart of the Bill. If that amendment had been passed, it would have destroyed the Bill. The noble Lord has said that this is a probing amendment. I take his word for it, and if my words were inappropriate, I apologise for them. However, I was put in a position that perhaps many noble Lords find themselves in; they have done a great deal of work and then, because of what actually happens, they find that they have to do the work yet again. It was not entirely a criticism of the noble Lord, and I apologise if he took it as such. We have worked on this issue on a number of occasions and I have nothing but respect for that position. However, tempers were raised by the AV Bill, because obviously we had been going for quite a long time on it, and then all private legislation was pushed back.

This is something that I am particularly exercised about. I have had hundreds and hundreds of letters on this issue. The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, said that the results of the consultation initiated under the previous Government have come in. An analysis of the people who responded in writing to the consultation—it was a very large one, and I understand Defra will have difficulty getting through and analysing the information properly—shows that 70 per cent are actually in favour of this legislation. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his Motion that Clause 1 should not stand part.

Marine Navigation Aids Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Redesdale

Friday 21st January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, this has been a stimulating debate on what looked to be a constructive and fairly modest Bill. I have found few joys in opposition, but it is one of them today that it is not my job to settle this kettle of fish. The Minister certainly has to produce some coherent replies, while my noble friend also has a few issues with which to wrestle.

I thought that it was slightly unfair that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, was chided for interrupting the opening speech. This is a fairly unusual situation, as my noble friend Lord Berkeley said. As he was about to propose a major structural change to the Bill, in which only Clause 12 would survive in its existing form, he was bound to expect that some anxiety would be expressed on that score. I think that the noble Earl would accept, along with other noble Lords, that whereas my noble friend wrote to the Minister and to me on behalf of the opposition Front Bench, it would have been difficult for him to inform all Members who were going to participate in the debate, because he did not know who they would be at that stage. That is why things came late to other noble Lords. That is a genuine difficulty and not one that I have seen before with regard to a Private Member’s Bill. We all recognise the problems there.

[Lord Redesdale]

I rise not to speak about this Bill but to point out that the Dog Control Bill was pulled from business last night because at 5 pm the opposition Front Bench tabled amendments, one of which was a wrecking amendment. There has to be some care in putting forward these points. I am not sure whether that was done on purpose to destroy a Private Member’s Bill or whether it was simply done, unfortunately, at the last minute, but neither I nor the Whips’ Office was informed. I hope that the noble Lord can take that back to his colleagues on the opposition Front Bench.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

I reassure the House that I am not responsible for dog control for the Opposition, so I have no knowledge of those instances. A dearth of my colleagues in support on the Front Bench may have been noted; a major meeting of the Front Bench is going on, from which I am the only absentee, so I shall take to that meeting the point that the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, has made.

With this Bill, my noble friend is trying to respond to the reality of a significant and changing situation. The Bill was drafted in advance of his knowledge of the agreement on the Irish lighthouses. We all welcome that agreement and congratulate the Government on the progress that has been made. Two successive British Governments had looked for a long time at what was almost a historical accident, which had somewhat outlived its justification. It is a slight irony, I suppose, that the Government hand out billions to the Irish Government and seek to take a small amount of money back in relation to this Bill, but this is scarcely the place for major economic debates on such issues.

I understand the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, reinforced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, that there was a case for withdrawing the Bill. My noble and learned friend is wise enough in these matters to be able to conduct his own affairs but on the whole I agree that, if the Government follow up the suggestion that they should bring in a more comprehensive measure, this Bill could be and ought probably to be dropped. However, until we see the colour of the Government’s money, my noble friend would be well advised to continue with a Bill that has significant constructive possibilities to it. If the Government can give absolutely clear assurances on the way forward encompassing the objectives of the Bill, then so be it, but there should not be a premature withdrawal. Therefore, I hope today that, despite the strong points that were made in this regard—the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, also emphasised this—the Bill will be given a Second Reading, if only because we have had the occasion for a very enlightened debate, which I am sure will continue until we see the full picture. Only in this debate and in this House could we have such contributions of expert opinion on a shipping issue. I speak as someone who has been seasick on the Solent, so I defer to all those who have that vast experience of shipping issues and I appreciate the contributions that have been made.

The main debate was on the question of how the dues have been organised over the years. It is undoubtedly the case that a catch-up that occurs because a freeze has obtained for a time is deeply resented—it is bound to be. There is no doubt at all that, as the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, reflected, this has been a prosperous time for the British shipping industry, which has been the beneficiary of frozen fees. We probably need to ensure that there is a process that has a rather less dramatic impact on the industry, although I take on board the points that my noble friend Lord Prescott made when speaking in the gap. However, other noble Lords also emphasised that those questions of costs are not such as to see a major deterioration in the competitiveness of British ports vis-à-vis Rotterdam or other continental ports. We have to keep these things in some degree of context. Nevertheless, they are a factor. Consequently, we should use this legislation or ensure that the Government are pressed to identify how these matters will be dealt with in future.

We must all be in favour of the saving of costs. Quite frankly, even a landlubber like me would look somewhat askance if costs could not be reduced, given the enormous technological advances that have occurred regarding safety at sea. Those surely give us an opportunity to guarantee what is absolutely essential—safety—but must we then make a trade-off between safety and how the services that are withdrawn are organised? Nevertheless, there must be that opportunity on administrative costs and we should welcome that. The only thing to say on costs of that kind is that, if any vehicle is difficult to organise in terms of how one considers operating costs, I would guess that it is a Private Member’s Bill, but that is for my noble friend to answer when he replies to the debate.

This has been a most stimulating occasion. I think that we have all genuinely enjoyed the debate. There has been a clash of opinion, which I quite understand, given that the Bill is being recast significantly, but everyone in the House will know that my noble friend Lord Berkeley is stimulated by a commitment to improvements in transport. He has put this Bill forward in good faith. It can still be, in our view, a vehicle for progress in an important area. I therefore hope that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading.