Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Lord Dannatt and Lord Tunnicliffe

Report stage
Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 26, in the name of my noble friend Lord Coaker. We have retabled this amendment from Committee due to the strength of feeling on this issue across the House. Commonwealth service personnel and other non-UK personnel have contributed an enormous amount to our national defence, and we owe them a debt of gratitude.

Extortionate visa fees have left non-UK veterans facing financial ruin and feeling abandoned by the country they served with courage and distinction. I was shocked when the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, said in Committee that Hong Kong veterans feel that

“they are being treated as aliens, not veterans of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces.”

I remember how the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, said that the welcome approach to former Afghan staff means that government policy towards

“foreign and Commonwealth soldiers who have stood shoulder to shoulder with us and fought in many campaigns … is an anomaly and it is bizarre.”

I also remember how the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, said that the MoD policy change that now allows Gurkhas to apply some 18 weeks before leaving service

“does not address the issue of cost”.

The Minister stated:

“We recognise that settlement fees place a financial burden on non-UK serving personnel wishing to remain in the UK after their discharge”.


So why is action on this issue so slow? I am grateful that the Minister told the House that 6,398 responses were received in the Government’s consultation, but we are still not further forward when the Minister says only that

“the Government will publish their response in due course.”—[Official Report, 2/11/21; cols. GC 337-41.]

This answer is no longer acceptable. We need to know when and how the Government will act, and they should not hide behind the usual ministerial lines to kick the can down the road.

I remind the Minister of the large sums involved. Under current rules, Commonwealth personnel face a fee of £2,389 per person to continue to live in the UK, after having served for at least four years. This means that someone with a partner and two children could face a bill of £10,000 to stay in Britain. I will listen very closely to the Minister’s reply.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

I will make two points, a broader one and a narrower one that is particularly germane to this amendment. My broader point picks up the discussion in your Lordships’ House about the wider duty of care standard, which we debated in the context of the overseas operations Bill, introduced at Second Reading of this Bill and discussed and debated in Committee. I am encouraged by the Minister’s various responses at the various stages of these two Bills. The Ministry of Defence appears to be going very much in the right direction, which is why an amendment requiring the Secretary of State to put in place a duty of care standard has not featured on Report of this Bill.

My narrower point still relates to duty of care and duty of care standards, with particular regard to former service men and women who served in Hong Kong, Gurkhas, and foreign and Commonwealth individuals. The latter make up a large proportion of the British Armed Forces today. I come back to the very narrow point I made in Committee: it is an anomaly that among those withdrawn from Afghanistan in Operation Pitting in August were former members of the Afghan national army, who have now been given right of residence in this country and are in a better position than foreign and Commonwealth soldiers, and Gurkha soldiers who have served shoulder to shoulder with us for at least four years, and in many cases for much longer.

Armed Forces Bill

Debate between Lord Dannatt and Lord Tunnicliffe

Thursday 8th September 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Dannatt]

I support the general tone of the three amendments, which promote the mood in the country that we have not got our medal policy right. For three years, I took part in discussion as Chief of the General Staff within the Chief of Staff's committee when we discuss medal issues as they arose in relation to Iraq and Afghanistan. After extensive discussion, we often arrived at conclusions. On a number of occasions, those conclusions were turned down because they offended the existing HD committee rules.

We have talked about double-medalling. There are many examples of the sanctioning of double-medalling. I give an example from my own experience. I was the commander of British forces in Bosnia in 1995-96 and, over that six-month period, the UN operation ended and the NATO operation began. The soldiers under my command for that six-month period had three months under the UN and three months under NATO. It was decided that, because they had served in one campaign loyally over that six-month period, they should have the UN medal and, for the very difficult start of the NATO operation, they should have the NATO medal. Therefore, for that six-month period they got two medals.

There are other examples of how the double-medalling rule has been broken. We have heard examples concerning the PJM. I visited Malaysia as Chief of the General Staff just ahead of the 50th anniversary of independence. It was embarrassing to be quizzed on Malaysian television about the fact that our servicemen could not wear this medal. The awful compromise arrived at in the end, compounding the original compromise that you could accept the medal but not wear it, was that it could be worn for a short period in certain circumstances. I believe that that makes a mockery of the existing rules and regulations of the HD committee.

It is said that these things are decided simply by a committee of civil servants. However, when it comes to evaluating an act of gallantry of the highest order, with a candidate for the Victoria Cross or George Cross, the head of the service of that candidate is brought into the discussions with the committee. Therefore, again, there are more anomalies within the system.

In supporting the general tone of these three amendments, my request is for the Government to recognise that there is a degree of dissatisfaction among the serving community, and particularly among the veteran community, about the inequity in the treatment of medals in recent years. I ask that in the immediate future the composition, rules and regulations of the HD committee be looked at again and reviewed in a transparent and open way so that everyone—serving or veteran—feels that they have been dealt with fairly.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

My Lords, I have to confess that I come to this Committee briefed by my own party to take a neutral position. Equally, I have to recognise that, if this matter were to go to a vote on Report and we took a neutral position, the Government would not be realistically challenged. In light of the breadth and depth of the speeches that I have heard today and in light of what the Government have to say, I shall be reconsidering our position.