Environment Bill

Debate between Lord Curry of Kirkharle and Lord Whitty

Report stage
Wednesday 8th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, I added my name to this amendment. I will not go over the ground again. The noble Earl and the noble Baroness have made the case strongly, and it was made strongly on Monday. But I would say one thing to the Minister: on Monday, he was reluctant to accept the amendment that made a priority of soil management, which, as the noble Baroness has just said, has historically not been given attention. The neglect of that dimension of agricultural land use and environmental policy is one of the most dangerous things confronting humanity.

Soil is essential for our food, our biodiversity, our ecosystems and our very survival. Therefore, even if the Minister and his colleagues decide that the priority we voted on in this House on Monday is not to their liking, and they want to delete it or alter it, whatever they do at that level in this Bill, operationally they need a strategy of the kind that is laid out in the noble Earl’s amendment. No amount of arguing about priorities will change the fact that it is absolutely clear that soil must be one of our priorities, and we need a plan as laid out in this amendment to operationalise that priority. I do hope that, whatever the circumstances, the Minister will accept this amendment.

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of Cawood Scientific, which provides analysis of soil and other agricultural products. I apologise that I was unable to be present on Monday, but I was very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, for quoting me in her speech. Let me, without duplication, endorse what has been said already and perhaps expand on my comments repeated by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, on Monday.

The Republic of Ireland has decided to carry out an extensive survey of its soil. It is spending €10 billion this year and is expected to spend a similar amount over the next three years to have a comprehensive understanding of the quality of the soil throughout the entire Irish Republic. Northern Ireland is considering a similar approach, so the whole island of Ireland will have, I hope, a soil-mapping exercise that will provide it with all the data it needs to make informed decisions to improve the quality of its soil.

I attended the Rothamsted Research centre a few years ago and met the soil scientists. The thing that stuck in my mind was when a scientist said, “Once soil is completely degraded, it is impossible to recreate soil.” I thought that was a tribute to what was concluded with perfection in the Garden of Eden. Once we have degraded our soil completely, we have lost it for ever. So, why would we in England not wish to take a leading global position and understand the quality of our soil and have a strategy to address that quality? We need to do this. We have a vehicle to do it through the ELMS, when testing soil will be part of the encouragement that farmers will be given. It would be a simple matter to extend the responsibility in terms of quantifying and qualifying what soil testing actually means and to establish a standard nationally that would give us the same data and information that the Republic of Ireland will have. Why would we not do that?

Water Bill

Debate between Lord Curry of Kirkharle and Lord Whitty

Tuesday 8th April 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Curry of Kirkharle]

Perhaps I may respond to that as I work through my argument.

Secondly, identifying the properties that will be subject to this special treatment will require the wisdom of Solomon and might create division and resentment among other property owners who are not able to benefit from the resilience measures used.

Thirdly—here I have some sympathy with the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter—Flood Re needs a strategy for the amount of reserves that will be appropriate and need to be built up to cover flood risk. A strategic approach to the amount of surplus required is important. It will be very difficult to determine what the reserve should be to cover flood risk over a period of years, but it is essential that a reserve is established to maintain adequate funds to cover significant flood risk.

Finally, my most important point—I respond here to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours—is that, as a policyholder, I do not want to continue contributing to a fund that has established a significant surplus. Once the surplus has been determined and achieved, I would hope that the Government and the ABI would have a mature discussion about reducing the contributions to the fund so that they do not establish an ever-increasing fund which may never be used. It would benefit the insurance companies if they did not need to continue collecting funds to contribute to this reserve. Resilience measures are essential and should be taken as properties are restored after flooding, but it is not the role of the fund to provide the resources to do that.

[Lord Whitty]

My Lords, I can see the immediate attractiveness of the amendment but I share some of the reservations of the noble Lord, Lord Curry. If we are going to do this, we have to be more precise than the provisions in the amendment. The noble Lord rightly said that Flood Re will need a strategy for its surpluses and the limitations on the degree of cross-subsidy it can require from policyholders more generally. There will be a limit as to what is acceptable in that regard. It will also need a strategy to ensure that resilience and mitigation measures are adopted by those at the highest risk. If this amendment means that, and if it is a relatively small part of such surpluses—by which I mean a very small part—I can probably go along with it. If, however, it is as open-ended as it appears—and we know what the demands for flood mitigation as climate change and population pressures increase are likely to be—the temptation for insurance companies outside the system, the Government and the population to try to raid the Flood Re surplus for those purposes will begin to increase as well.

Despite the initial attractions, I do not think I can support the rather open-ended nature of the amendment as it stands. However, as we move forward and review the scheme, I hope that the Government and the administrators of Flood Re, along with other stakeholders, will find ways of ensuring a maximal take-up of resilience measures by those who own properties at risk and their insurance companies.